KenM
Well-known member
How do you explain the head Lou, it's the same shape in all the shots, protruding, pointed and small?
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Buteo...one that nearly got away.....or? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter KenM
- Start date
How do you explain the head Lou, it's the same shape in all the shots, protruding, pointed and small?
lewis20126
Well-known member
If you go to this website:
http://www.goingbirding.co.uk/hants/photos.asp
and search for Honey Buzzard, you fill get a fair impression of what adults can look like. They never have dark bellies in combination with white breast bands, a pattern which is characteristic of adult common buzzards, as illustrated in your photos.
cheers, alan
http://www.goingbirding.co.uk/hants/photos.asp
and search for Honey Buzzard, you fill get a fair impression of what adults can look like. They never have dark bellies in combination with white breast bands, a pattern which is characteristic of adult common buzzards, as illustrated in your photos.
cheers, alan
Stonefaction
Dundee Birding....(target 150 in 2024).
If the bird is being mobbed by gulls, then perhaps the neck is extended further than normal to improve the all-round vision, giving the impression of a smaller head than normal.
Rotherbirder
Well-known member
FWIW, as they say, I thinks it's an Oozlum Bird. If you've never come across this enigmatic species before, just Google it (other search engines available)! It's description 'fits' quite well methinks?!
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Rob Smallwood
Well-known member
Honey Buzzard of the Northumbrian ssp for me . . .
KenM
Well-known member
Having spent more years than I care to mention observing CB, I am distinctly aware of how variable their cosmetics can be, much less so HB. However as has been commented on regarding ''noise',' I might suggest that the ''apparent'' dark belly v pale breast is just the effect of ''noise'' under-body shadow contrasting against a sunlit chest.
What I am more focused on (apart from the extremely long winged shots!!!), is that which is ''structurally'' visible regarding head shape, being diametrically opposed to CB!
All the shots (where head is visibly observed ''clear'' of the body) can't be dismissed as photo artefact as there is a clear consistency, indeed if you wish to go down the ''artefact'' road, it would be a contradiction to accept wings and tail as being convenient for CB and yet dismiss the ''pigeon head'' as being of no real consequence when it's ''pivotal''....in order to prove a point!
I look forward to a ''structurally objective'' critique to my comments on this matter.
Cheers
Rob Smallwood
Well-known member
I can see why in Pic 1 you feel it has a HB head. This feature is not apparent in the other shots, and Pics 2 - 4 don't say anything other than Common to me.
You seem convinced that it's a Honey so for you it is a HB. I wouldn't personally tick nor submit the record to my County Recorder based on these photos.
You seem convinced that it's a Honey so for you it is a HB. I wouldn't personally tick nor submit the record to my County Recorder based on these photos.
lewis20126
Well-known member
Stonefaction
Dundee Birding....(target 150 in 2024).
I searched other photos of Buzzards being mobbed by other species and found photos with a similar long necked, small headed appearance, due to the bird's neck being stretched out to improve visibility of the mobbing birds as they approached. (There were Honey Buzzard photos came up in the search also, but these tended to be very obviously different).
I also found a few of my own photos where the lighting on the back of the head/neck meant that this particular area seemed to melt into the background (unless you zoomed close enough in to see the detail). This was compounded when the bird was further from the camera.
I've attached 3 other stills from your video, which don't show the particular features you've chosen to focus on. Based on these 3 what would you say it was?
I also found a few of my own photos where the lighting on the back of the head/neck meant that this particular area seemed to melt into the background (unless you zoomed close enough in to see the detail). This was compounded when the bird was further from the camera.
I've attached 3 other stills from your video, which don't show the particular features you've chosen to focus on. Based on these 3 what would you say it was?
Attachments
phil baber
Clipped Wing
Nice CB shots Ken!
Andrew Rowlands
Well-known member
CB Ken, the flight's way too unstable for HB, frequent side to side rocking actions and little wing 'flicks'; HB flight would have been more stable, minor corrections more subtle, wing flapping more pronounced.
Good post:t:
In the late seventies I learned* to use the more pointed hand of GLIDING CB (versus the more "Lapwing-like" hand of HB) to tell the two species apart when they were passing overhead at high altitudes on migration at Gibraltar/Tarifa.
This has proved very useful, and can be used here too.
Peter
*from Clive Finlayson
As per Stonefaction's last post, attached are two images of mine of a resident adult Common Buzzard at a site near me escorting an intruding 2cy bird off of its territory. Note, especially in the first image, the apparently smaller head and/or longer neck of the 2cy. Such birds also often glide on flatter wings than one might imagine, in an effort to present less of a threat to any adult Common Buzzards whose territories they may fly through.
I'd not like to age the subject bird for certain, but the wing and tail proportions in at least one image do suggest that it may have been a 2cy. Likewise, there doesn't seem to be a broad dark trailing edge to the underwing, but there's too much noise in the images showing this to be certain.
In the second image of Ken's original post, in particular, the structure screams Common Buzzard. I don't see Honey Buzzard regularly, but, thanks to recent and ongoing increases in Ireland, I do see Common Buzzard regularly these last few years, and such a posture when 'getting the hell out of Dodge' is very common, covering ground quickly without having to waste energy flapping. It looks shorter-tailed in that, too, and probably too much so for Honey Buzzard.
Regards,
Harry
I'd not like to age the subject bird for certain, but the wing and tail proportions in at least one image do suggest that it may have been a 2cy. Likewise, there doesn't seem to be a broad dark trailing edge to the underwing, but there's too much noise in the images showing this to be certain.
In the second image of Ken's original post, in particular, the structure screams Common Buzzard. I don't see Honey Buzzard regularly, but, thanks to recent and ongoing increases in Ireland, I do see Common Buzzard regularly these last few years, and such a posture when 'getting the hell out of Dodge' is very common, covering ground quickly without having to waste energy flapping. It looks shorter-tailed in that, too, and probably too much so for Honey Buzzard.
Regards,
Harry
Attachments
KenM
Well-known member
A very interesting response so far!
Presumably there may have been a ''different'' reaction, had this been the only image posted (as is often the case on this forum) for ID purposes, therefore I'll put the same question to you?
Cheers
Attachments
petemorris
Well-known member
Plenty have explained already. Common Buzzards can stretch their necks... Perhaps time to
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU
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Stonefaction
Dundee Birding....(target 150 in 2024).
You won't answer my question, but you want me to answer yours? Ok, I'll play along....
Based on that one picture (and no mention of mobbing), it reminds me of a rather pale Common Buzzard captured in an atypical pose. Based on your original post. Common Buzzard, head shape explained earlier (but ignored). Watched the video, Common Buzzard reacting to being mobbed by gulls.
I don't see a Honey Buzzard, sorry to disappoint you. If you are about to expose the fact that this is your pet Honey Buzzard out for a jolly, and that we are all useless birders, then great, go ahead. Feel free. I'm bored of this now, feeling rather ill having been up half the night, and rather grumpy, not my usual placid, polite self. On another day, my response would likely be less irritated.
I usually avoid posts by yourself as I don't 'get' what you want to achieve with them. They rarely seem to be looking for an actual ID as your mind seems to be made up that it is always something rare. Are you just trying to discredit someone/this forum for a past perceived slight? You sometimes suggest that your posts are for 'educational' purposes, and sometimes they can be (for example, I've learned that it is a good idea to avoid them, especially when feeling ill).
If you think your bird is a Honey Buzzard, put it down as a Honey Buzzard. It is your list. I'm sure it will be in good company. Plenty folk on here (and better/more experienced birders than me) have said they think it is a Common Buzzard, and explained why. I'm bored of this now, so will leave you and your Honey Buzzard to enjoy your Saturday. Happy Birding.
lewis20126
Well-known member
KenM
Well-known member
It's a touch sad that "certain" individuals have the need to become "personal".
However, I'll just say that contrary to what has been suggested, this thread has been most instructive, a little unsure for whom though?
I always play "devil's advocate" with any of my "contentious" records, and as such I would submit them to the forum as I have done in the past, and they appear to have been of interest to the readership?
Regarding HB, I would suggest that they are one of the easiest BOP's to ID if seen in favourable conditions..good light and preferably from below, are really quite easy even at great height..."rocket science"it ain't!
However any BOP seen obliquely and at distance over a ten-twenty second period before disappearing behind yonder obstruction will often leave a question mark. I have "heard" (several years ago) that HB might not be a "million miles" away in Essex?
I do hope you recover quickly Stonefaction as your contribution to the "forum battlefield" will be sorely missed especially on all future engagements :eek!:
Liked the video Pete most thoughtful :t:
I'll probably just leave this as a "Long-winged-long-tailed-Pigeon-headed Buzzard".
Cheers
However, I'll just say that contrary to what has been suggested, this thread has been most instructive, a little unsure for whom though?
I always play "devil's advocate" with any of my "contentious" records, and as such I would submit them to the forum as I have done in the past, and they appear to have been of interest to the readership?
Regarding HB, I would suggest that they are one of the easiest BOP's to ID if seen in favourable conditions..good light and preferably from below, are really quite easy even at great height..."rocket science"it ain't!
However any BOP seen obliquely and at distance over a ten-twenty second period before disappearing behind yonder obstruction will often leave a question mark. I have "heard" (several years ago) that HB might not be a "million miles" away in Essex?
I do hope you recover quickly Stonefaction as your contribution to the "forum battlefield" will be sorely missed especially on all future engagements :eek!:
Liked the video Pete most thoughtful :t:
I'll probably just leave this as a "Long-winged-long-tailed-Pigeon-headed Buzzard".
Cheers
Just out of curiosity, Ken, and I don't mean this as any form of veiled personal criticism, did you spend any time simply observing this bird through binoculars or telescope as well as obtaining the footage? I realise you'd probably not have had the chance during the filming itself. I'd assume you did initially, to note the bird as being 'worth' filming, unless you habitually obtain video footage of every raptor you see flying overhead, even before identifying them provisionally?
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