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Cornell Lab Review - Zeiss Did Very Well Here (1 Viewer)

................................Well, for a long, long time Zeiss was *the* leading maker of high-quality binoculars and was seen as such by anyone who wanted to buy a premium binocu.........................................................

Today the top end of the market is dominated by Swarovski, not Zeiss. Today most power users don't buy Zeiss anymore, they buy Swarovski. Simply because Zeiss only has a small number of binoculars that can compete with the Swarovskis on an even level. ..........................

Hermann

Herman,

I'm not sure what you mean here by "power users." Do you mean people who typically use higher powered binoculars and who can get a better selection of them from Swarovski or do you mean a particular class of people who use binoculars in their vocation, or perhaps in their avocation?

Bob
 
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Gijs may know more than I do but I believe Kamakura Koki and Light Optical Works are the only major Japanese OEM sports optics companies left. They certainly do design and manufacture complete binoculars etc. and I suspect many of the popular models here are entirely due to them. Obviously they do build stuff to their partners designs and specifications as well. Exactly who makes what for which company I've not been able to find out. Kite has often been linked with Kamakura in particular but it's been suggested that many if not most of the well known makes use them.

There are countless companies in China and elsewhere making components and assembling optics but I've read that Kamakura's Chinese operation is the biggest optics factory in the world.

David

David,

I'm not that knowledgeable about current Japanese manufacturers. However, I believe that Hiyoshi Kogaku still makes major products for Swift Sports Optics, such as the Model 828 HHS Audubon and several others that look like it. They also make products for other labels sold around the world.

Ed
 
I'm not sure what you mean here by "power users."
To me as a German speaker, it is perfectly clear what Hermann means o:) So it's probably one of those expressions we think of being English, but actually they arn't.
It simply means users who use their stuff a lot, perhaps more than average.
 
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David,

I'm not that knowledgeable about current Japanese manufacturers. However, I believe that Hiyoshi Kogaku still makes major products for Swift Sports Optics, such as the Model 828 HHS Audubon and several others that look like it. They also make products for other labels sold around the world.

Ed

Ed,

I'm happy to be corrected. It was an industry veteran that that told me he feared it was down to the two I mentioned. Do you have and more details?

David
 
Ed,

I'm happy to be corrected. It was an industry veteran that that told me he feared it was down to the two I mentioned. Do you have and more details?

David

David,

Not really. I just go by the Swift products I see, and once in a while B-56 (Hiyoshi) pops up on something else. I do suspect that a lot of merging has been going on in Japan though.

Ed
 
To me as a German speaker, it is perfectly clear what Hermann means o:) So it's probably one of those expressions we think of being English, but actually they arn't.
It simply means users who use their stuff a lot, perhaps more than average.

Actually, I think most Americans would agree with that definition. I do.

Ed
 
David,

I'm not that knowledgeable about current Japanese manufacturers. However, I believe that Hiyoshi Kogaku still makes major products for Swift Sports Optics, such as the Model 828 HHS Audubon and several others that look like it. They also make products for other labels sold around the world.

Ed

Leupold's BX-2 Cascade/Hawthorne has many similarities with Swift's 828 HHS Audubon. They have the same focus wheel/diopter mechanism, the rainguards are the same, the eye cups and oculars are very similar and the phrase "Made in Japan" is in the same place on both of them albeit their exteriors have different type coverings.

Bob
 
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Zeiss has running room

I cannot speak to the European birding scene, but at least in NYC, my little corner of the world, the market is up for grabs.
I see lots of Swarovski glass, probably more than any other brand, but also plenty of Nikon and Zeiss gear, plus Vortex, Kowa etc etc. Very few Leica users. While the most diligent birder in Central Park always has Leica with him, Leica is his dog, not his binocular brand.
The kids usually have low to mid range Nikons initially, but shift to Swaro or Zeiss after a couple of years as their budget/parents allow. Moreover, kids will try new gear and are less sensitive to the advantages of a lifetime guarantee, especially as Zeiss and Nikon both offer decent guarantees as well here in the US. The market here is clearly open to a better glass and firms that rest on their laurels will see them wilt rapidly.
 
The three tier structure of Victory on top, Conquest in the middle and Terra below is now well established in the States for bins and rifle scopes

Lee

I agree with Lee, I think they are better positioned against the competition with this current lineup. Nikon's, vortex's, house brands and other cheap models dominate the bino counters around here and there seems to be Swaros 2 or 3 per 1 zeiss and/or Leica on display.

I have yet to see the peoples favorire 8x32 Conquest HD in stock or on display in the outdoorsmen's stores that I frequently visit. You can't buy what you can't see.

Thry did have the Mckinley on display today, the first I've seen of it this year.

I know its less expensive, but it don't compare to the conquest.

CG
 
Leupold's BX-2 Cascade/Hawthorne has many similarities with Swift's 828 HHS Audubon. They have the same focus wheel/diopter mechanism, the rainguards are the same, the eye cups and oculars are very similar and the phrase "Made in Japan" is in the same place on both of them albeit their exteriors have different type coverings.

Bob

Bob,

Judging by pictures of the Leupold 8x42 Cascade I certainly agree they share a number of features, altho the Model 828 Audubon 8.5x44 configuration seems to be holding steady as a unique Swift product. I've never been able to find a manufacturer's mark on the 828, but Nicolas Crista worked with the Hiyoshi people to fix their original eyecup design (which is how he got the eyecup patent). So, I've assumed that since the product is still sold the manufacturer remained the same. For all I know, however, they were bought out and their successor now makes the instruments.

Ed

PS. I also have a physical cut-away of Model 829 "Warbler" (Nicolas made for me), and it also has no manufacturer's mark inside or out. They certainly don't make it easy like they used to. (The Warbler is probably about 10 yrs. old.)
 
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Hi Ed,

The "Warbler" is a new one to me. I must have missed it. I have no idea what it looks like.

I have an 804 and the 828 and that's probably all I will ever have now although I keep hoping that they will come out with the 7 x 36 Eaglet again.

Back in 2001 or so I almost bought their little 8 x 32 porro which came in a little hard snap case and I'm kind of sorry I didn't because it disappeared quickly. I got an 8 x 30 EII instead at that time which I still have.

Bob
 
The three tier structure of Victory on top, Conquest in the middle and Terra below is now well established in the States for bins and rifle scopes (and I am sure will be rolled out across the globe) and we can expect more gaps to be filled-in during 2014. Lee

Plenty of support for this point of view elsewhere.

OL has ZEISS on top in their practical review :

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/master-class/2013/05/new-binoculars-hunting-binos-best-binoculars-binocular-2013

and give their methodology here :

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/master-class/2013/05/how-we-test-riflescopes-binoculars-and-spotting-scopes
 
Mike,

It's not a secret that Gerhard Dobler designed the Chinese made Terra with such built in quality limitations to stay within the budget.
If this is an example of your statement how the Zeiss Board of Directors invests millions in Sport Optics, then -in my book- we will soon carry Zeiss Sport optics as an A-fabric to it's funeral.

I followed your reaction on Gijs his disclosure of the "Made in Germany" with great interest and I had prefered to see an reaction from Zeiss from this side of the ocean.

How Jerry reacted is below any civil communication level. Shame on you Jerry. Why you are present is on an international forum when your only contribution on this subject is bashing and narrow focust. Quote: I only believe people I trust and work for Zeiss.
And than you start insulting!!

But you gave me reason to react.

Mike states that Gijs's statement is not accurate and that he paints a very false picture.
And then there is no further explanation on the subject and we are to believe him, because, after all, he is the representative of Zeiss and says so.

Now I know Gijs his source also and knows he visits Zeiss Wetzlar more often than I take my dogs to the park.
I can imagine Zeiss wants to know who this person is. If you see how Gijs is treated, what will the Zeiss treatment be? Kill the messenger?
There is no reason for this person to lie about this subject because for us this item is not an issue.
It is long known that Kamakura builts the Conquests. It was denied by Zeiss first, but now they admitt.
Kamakura has the capacity of mass production. Something Zeiss does no longer has. Isn't the shipment to te US not 25000 pieces every time, Mike?
Labour prices in Japan is as high as in Germany, so sending Zeiss parts to Japan for further work, sending them back for assambly does not make any sense.
But now comes the little point of the "made in" issue, which by itself is no issue unless Zeiss wants his customers to believe they buy a Made in germany product instead of an blue labelled oriental product.

In that case Jane, our Canadian crocodilehunter is right when he stated that if that would be the case Bushnell could stamp "Made in Germany" in it and......double the prices.

Jan
 
Is it the precision inherent in the optics equipment that provokes such catty responses? People getting obsessed with the minutiae and very quick to feel offense.
Gijs is a superb resource to this forum and has always been factual, afaik.
Likewise Mike's contributions are a major asset, the only direct input here from an alpha make CEO.
Do they always see things the same way? They sure do not, disagreement is the nature of the market. There is no need to get snide.

Re mass production, Zeiss produces eyeglass lenses by the many millions annually, so it seems they have not lost the touch. However, no one is selling even hundreds of thousands of some binocular model over less than a decade or so, so that is a different business with a different supply chain.

Binocular quality is mostly in the mechanicals today, as the optics side is well understood. But that aspect gets little attention, apart from the speed and feel of the focuser. I'd love to have someone knowledgeable, ideally Gijs or Mike or Holger or perhaps Henry post on that side, instead of hacking about where final assembly takes place.
 
Is it the precision inherent in the optics equipment that provokes such catty responses? People getting obsessed with the minutiae and very quick to feel offense.
Gijs is a superb resource to this forum and has always been factual, afaik.
Likewise Mike's contributions are a major asset, the only direct input here from an alpha make CEO.
Do they always see things the same way? They sure do not, disagreement is the nature of the market. There is no need to get snide.

Re mass production, Zeiss produces eyeglass lenses by the many millions annually, so it seems they have not lost the touch. However, no one is selling even hundreds of thousands of some binocular model over less than a decade or so, so that is a different business with a different supply chain.

Binocular quality is mostly in the mechanicals today, as the optics side is well understood. But that aspect gets little attention, apart from the speed and feel of the focuser. I'd love to have someone knowledgeable, ideally Gijs or Mike or Holger or perhaps Henry post on that side, instead of hacking about where final assembly takes place.

Etude makes a good point.

With optics being so great, generally speaking, the mechanical side can sometimes seem ignored by the sports optics makers.

I am sure this is partly because of a tradition of emphasis on the optics with some makers. But with all of them there is the balance to be struck between keeping the weight down and the robustness of the focuser, eyecups or whatever.

But I suspect that as optical advances get smaller and smaller, its the mechanicals that will begin to separate the truly excellent from the merely good.

Lee
 
Well, what I mean is: There is no need to "downplay" the Conquest through its alleged place of manufacture - since if it doesn't focus accurately, it does downplay itself :)

The focus drift problem has been mentioned here before, and is a frequent topic on the German Juelich-Bonn forum. It is also described in one of my publications for a German astronomer's journal, in which I tested the Conquest HD against the Swarovski SV. I have been in contact with Zeiss about that problem and was informed (that was more than a year ago) that it had been solved. Yet, single reports about that are still popping up in the user reports, some reporting that the focus was fine initially and turned inaccurate after several months of usage. It is better to keep an eye on that.

@Pompadour: Kamakura Koki makes the Nikon Monarch, among many other medium range binoculars. Their best products are made in Japan, others in Kamakura owned Chinese plants.



Cheers,
Holger

Holger,

On the subject of the "focus drift" you mention that has affected some of the Conquest HDs; I am wondering if this is "diopter drift" or "diopter migration?"

This problem is described in this recent thread:

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2876145&postcount=7

I recall that there were similar problems with some Vortex models which had the diopter adjustment integrated with the focus wheel and with many of the binoculars it's setting would 'drift" or "migrate" during normal focusing. Nikon seems to have had the same problem with their EDG I when they first introduced it in the USA. It's diopter adjustment was also integrated with the focus wheel.

I've never seen the new Conquest HD but from the instructions on the Zeiss website and instructions there it appears that the diopter adjustment is isolated on the right eyepiece.

I am wondering how the diopter drift could happen while it is isolated like this?

Bob
 
Holger,

On the subject of the "focus drift" you mention that has affected some of the Conquest HDs; I am wondering if this is "diopter drift" or "diopter migration?"

This problem is described in this recent thread:

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2876145&postcount=7

I recall that there were similar problems with some Vortex models which had the diopter adjustment integrated with the focus wheel and with many of the binoculars it's setting would 'drift" or "migrate" during normal focusing. Nikon seems to have had the same problem with their EDG I when they first introduced it in the USA. It's diopter adjustment was also integrated with the focus wheel.

I've never seen the new Conquest HD but from the instructions on the Zeiss website and instructions there it appears that the diopter adjustment is isolated on the right eyepiece.

I am wondering how the diopter drift could happen while it is isolated like this?

Bob

Bob,

You talk about the Nikon EDG dioptre adjustment being integrated with the focus wheel, but it isn't clear what you mean by that. I think that it is worthwhile differentiating between how it works and how, for instance, the Zeiss FL dioptre adjustment works.

The dioptre adjustment on the Nikon EDG is carried out directly by adjusting a separate dioptre wheel and this isn't connected to the focuser in any way. They are separate with the focus wheel not being used to adjust the dioptre setting as it is with the Zeiss FL. The problem of the moving dioptre on the EDG is due to the focus wheel binding on the dioptre adjustment ring if too much (heavy handed?) pressure is exerted on the objective end of the (floating) focus wheel and dragging it out of adjustment. It happens with the EDG ll as well.

Stan
 
Herman,

I'm not sure what you mean here by "power users." Do you mean people who typically use higher powered binoculars and who can get a better selection of them from Swarovski or do you mean a particular class of people who use binoculars in their vocation, or perhaps in their avocation?

People who use binoculars a lot and in often stressful situations like bad weather, at the coast, on long birding trips abroad and so on. At least over here the overwhelming majority of these users tend to get an alpha roof, simply because alpha roofs tend to stand up to such usage a lot better than most cheaper binoculars.

Hermann
 
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