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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

New Fujinon bins KF series: KF7x28H, KF8x42W, KF10x42W NEW (1 Viewer)

If there's going to be a new high quality porro made, it's more likely to come from a smaller, "hungrier" company such as Zen Ray or Vortex.

Sooner or later, some company is going to realize the potential for high quality porros, and if they build a better "Acura" than Nikon or a better "BMW" than Zeiss, they will dominate that market segment.

Brock

My $0.02 is that porros are dying because they remain bulky, relatively fragile and leak prone compared to roofs.
About 25-30% of the used porros I purchased on Ebay had collimation or inner dirt issues, while the primary problem (maybe 10%) with roofs was cleaning damage to the lenses.
Little by little, that catches up with the product, even if the peak performance of the porro remains a tad better.
To revitalize the porro design in the marketplace, a "bit better for less" product is quite inadequate, at least imo. The customer has to have a "wow" experience to make her/him switch.
Such a "wow"might be because of a generous field of view plus good eye relief, qualities that are not easily combined. Clearly there is need for innovation, else the current erosion will continue.
 
A-K prisms are roof prisms, so they do benefit from phase coatings. I believe you are thinking of the fact that that A-K prisms use total internal reflection on every surface, so no reflective coating is necessary, as it would be in most other commonly used roof prism systems (Schmidt-Pechan).

Best regards,
Patrik Iver

Thanks for that correction. Post edited!

Brock
 
My $0.02 is that porros are dying because they remain bulky, relatively fragile and leak prone compared to roofs.
About 25-30% of the used porros I purchased on Ebay had collimation or inner dirt issues, while the primary problem (maybe 10%) with roofs was cleaning damage to the lenses.
Little by little, that catches up with the product, even if the peak performance of the porro remains a tad better.
To revitalize the porro design in the marketplace, a "bit better for less" product is quite inadequate, at least imo. The customer has to have a "wow" experience to make her/him switch.
Such a "wow"might be because of a generous field of view plus good eye relief, qualities that are not easily combined. Clearly there is need for innovation, else the current erosion will continue.

Thanks for that 2 cents, I'm going to raise that to a quarter for succinctly summing up the challenge.

Yes, innovation is needed, but who has the talent, resources, and interest in making a better dinosaur?

Maybe we should contact John Hammond, the owner of Jurassic Park and founder of InGen. :)

Brock
 
Brock,

The Fuji porros are already not cheap. Take that existing package, add what you say you want, Internal central focuser, wide angle, and better not forget wide sharp to the edge field, keep the same rugged build quality and you have $1,500 plus porros that probably don't better the SE much.

Better to ask Leupold/Vortex for a Yosemite/Raptor Super XHD or somesuch.
 
As far as country of origin, today products are made all over the world by brands associated with certain countries ...........

............................. Walmart also requires all its vendors to make their goods in China.


............................................................................

Brock

This surprises me.

I have a friend who calls Walmart "The Great Chinese Outlet Store." I haven't been in one for several years (Ever since that big INS raid about 3 years ago on a Walmart Distribution Center being built along Interstate 81 in Schuylkill Co. They got about 130 skilled trade illegals employed there in it's construction by a private contractor. They had to rent buses from the County Transportation Authority to haul them off. Walmart denied any knowledge of it's contractors hiring process.) but I thought they still sold American made products.

Bob
 
This surprises me.

I have a friend who calls Walmart "The Great Chinese Outlet Store." I haven't been in one for several years (Ever since that big INS raid about 3 years ago on a Walmart Distribution Center being built along Interstate 81 in Schuylkill Co. They got about 130 skilled trade illegals employed there in it's construction by a private contractor. They had to rent buses from the County Transportation Authority to haul them off. Walmart denied any knowledge of it's contractors hiring process.) but I thought they still sold American made products.

Bob

Bob,

Individual Walmarts carry some locally made products and produce, because it's either cheaper not feasible to import them from China, but Walmart's "hard goods" vendors have their offices on the same block as Walmart's HQ in Bentonville, Ark., and during one of their vendor meetings, Walmart laid down the law - you must move your operations over to China if you want to keep our business. That mandate probably bumped China's GNP by several points.

You're not alone in shunning China*Mart. My pharmacist has negative articles about the company taped to the walls of his pharmacy and never shops there himself (or at least I haven't seen him).

On my limited budget, I can't afford not to buy at least some things from Walmart such as suet cakes, which are half the price that Westcoy charges, though I buy my sunflower seeds from Westcoy since they actually have better prices... usually, sunflower seed prices spiked to an all time high last month, so high that the store is paying more per bag themselves than their discounted advanced purchase retail price! So they are actually losing money.

I do buy from Walmart, but I have never bought binoculars there! :)

Brock
 
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Bob,

Individual Walmarts carry some locally made products and produce, because it's either cheaper not feasible to import them from China, but Walmart's "hard goods" vendors have their offices on the same block as Walmart's HQ in Bentonville, Ark., and during one of their vendor meetings, Walmart laid down the law - you must move your operations over to China if you want to keep our business. That mandate probably bumped China's GNP by several points.


Brock

This is the biggest bunch of crap I've heard in awhile about Walmart dictating that everything be made in China. There are many items sold in Walmart that come from American factories, including TV's, power tools, etc. Do I have to rename you Becknroller?
 
As far as country of origin, today products are made all over the world by brands associated with certain countries. I exposed this myth in an article I wrote in the 1990s ago when "Buy American" bumper stickers started appearing on US cars.

I don't think that an artyiucle written in the 1990's would count as an "expose" of this issue. It has been a fact of manufacturing and apparent for a lot longer than that.


While you may not care about the country of origin of the binoculars you buy, others do, particularly hunters. Just check out the posts on Optics Talk or 24hrcampfire. In general, hunters tend to be more conservative than birders and a portion of them don't like the idea of buying binoculars from a communist country. The "Red Menace" has even reared its ugly head on these forums.

The point is not whether I care about seeing a country of origin label or not, but what it really tells the prospective purchaser. That a consumer product was labeled Made in Japan, Germany, Austria, France, etc, tells the prospective purchaser nothing about the suitability of the product for it's intended purpose or about it's quality. Assume for a moment that the impossible happened and all of the components for a product truly originated in Austria or Japan. Those parts still could have come from 2 dozen or more different companies. The result is really no different than if the parts had come from a 2 dozen different companies in a dozen different countries. Fact is the reputation of the company in question is a much better indicator of product quality than where it's sub-contractors do business. Leupold is a so-called USA brand that is loved by a lot of hunters and other outdoors people. Guess what - those USA branded bins have origins in Asia!

I'm currently working on an article about Walmart distribution centers. If Walmart was a country, it would be China’s 8th largest trading partner in the world! Walmart also requires all its vendors to make their goods in China.

Huh??? Where did you get that piece of mis-information??? Walmart requires all it's vendors to make their products in China??? No way... That requirement would make no sense. And is obviously not the case if you just walk through a Wal Mart.

I have no such prejudice against Chinese goods, as long as they are made well and have good quality control, but alas, most Chinese products are not made well and they fall apart in short order. Basically, cheap disposables./QUOTE]

Most chinese goods are cheap and not well made? So that's what 80 to 90% maybe? You should look closely at the origin of all of the products that you buy before making such a statement. Most electronic components have their origin in China and that includes controllers used in a varietyy of appliances, etc. I don't see huge numbers of failures. If you want an example look at electronic televisions. The television of today is so good that it put an entire industry out of business - the television repairman.

There is also the opposite effect. Some buyers will chose Minox's "Made in Germany" HGs over its "Made in Japan" HGs simply because Eurobins have more cachet.

If a company sourced its parts from 30 different companies, no way would they be able to maintain quality control or oversee QC in all those countries. So that's not even an option.

Have you looked carefully at where all the components large and small that go into the modern automobile originate?

I'm not sure what you are referring to about Swaro's "foreign parts," but according to our resident Swaro rep, Dale Forbes, the reason Swarovski refuses to move its manufacturing out of Austria is that the company adheres to ISO 9000 Standards and does not feel they could get the same quality products by outsourcing their manufacture. Perhaps you have some inside information that Dale does not or can't speak of. :)

The little I know about ISO 9000 leads me to believe it is a codification of TQM, QIP and all those other process improvement acronyms. I'm glad to read that Swarovski is focused on producing quality goods. I would be very surprised to find that all of the components for anything other than a very simple product were manufactured from scratch in one factory let alone in one country.

As I've written elsewhere, I don't think the porro prism binocular will ever become totally extinct because of their optical efficiency.

Porro prism binoculars still offer the greatest brightness and resolution for the buck, and there are some market segments such as amateur astronomy, and marine and military applications, where the porro prism binocular will continue to dominate.

Like camera film I don't think porro prism binoculars will become extinct any time soon, but usage will continue to gradually decline after an initial precipitous fall. If porro prism binoculars offered better functionality and value than their roof prism brothers I would have to assume that the hunters, birders and other binocular users would have voted with their pocketbooks a long time ago and roof prism bins would have remained a bit player. Something else has happened and I have to think that most binocular buyers are able to make choices based on performance and features. And not strictly on advertising hype.

As Holger asked at the end of his Meopta vs. EII review, Why pay for features you don’t really need? That’s why 90% of astronomy binoculars are porro prisms instead of roof prism binoculars. You don't need nitrogen purged bins down to 10 meters, because if it's raining, you're not going stargazing!

And certain chinese manufacturers are filling what is a relatively small niche for big objective inexpensive porro prism binoculars.

I continue to believe that the dominance of roofs is more one of fashion than of reason. If an optics company, particularly one that is already well established and recognized for its quality optics, be it Fuji, Nikon, Swarovski, or some other longtime player, would go out on a limb and produce a high quality porro that could match an alphas performance with ergonomics that aren't too bulky or heavy and come in at half the price or less of alphas, only snobs and fools would not considering buy them.

You apparently believe that the vast majority of binocular purchasers don't really think about their purchases. Apparently most birders, hunters and general purpose users are willing to spend considerable sums of money simply because a certain style of binocular is fashionable. Surely those Nikon, Zeiss, Pentax and Leica roof prism binoculars must deliver something beyond shape and a pretty logo.
 
John,

Rather than reply to the comments where you put words in my mouth, I will end our debate by getting back on point and referring you to this article by Stephen Ingraham that nicely sums up my own comments, and agree to disagree rather than keep debating the same points over and over again.

The New Optical Landscape

http://www.betterviewdesired.com/The-New-Optical-Landscape.php

I will reply to one comment, however, since Bob broached the subject on another post. The info about Walmart requiring its large "hard product" vendors to move their manufacturing to China to make Walmart's "pipeline" more efficient and cost effective was obtained from a reliable source: 60 Minutes.

They did a piece on Walmart a few years ago, it might be in their archives, where they went with cameras in hand to Walmart meetings with their vendors in Bentonville, Ark. and then interviewed vendors about this. Look it up!

You have to register to view the 60 Minutes archive, and I don't have time to search through it now, but if and when I find the segment I referenced, I will send you a PM with the link.

But here's a tidbit from Frontline:

"Of Wal-Mart's 6,000 global suppliers, experts estimate that as many as 80 percent are based in China."

Walmart doesn't have to break the law by forcing its vendors to manufacture in China, they simply take bids only from those vendors who offer the best price, and in most cases, those vendors manufacture in China.

Source:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/etc/synopsis.html

Be interesting to see if Fuji's Chinese clones show up at Walmart! My local Walmart carries Leupold's Mesa line (or did, they are now discontinued), Bushnell bins, and low priced Nikons.

Walmart also has a number of other low priced binoculars available on line, which can be shipped to your local Walmart for pickup:

http://www.walmart.com/browse/Camping-Optics-Binoculars/_/N-96it

Das Ende
 
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Brock

In this segment, a couple was trying to sell an item to Walmart that they were assembling, and sourcing all the component parts in the US. Walmart advised them what the price point was that they could sell the item for, and the couple decided that the only way they could meet this price point was to have the components made offshore.

Walmart never has or ever will dictate that vendors make an item in China. If they did that would open them up to an antitrust investigation by the Dept of Justice. Walmart does meet regularly with its suppliers to find ways to lower costs. For example, they did dictate to the suppliers of laundry detergent that they would only sell the concentrated versions - thus reducing shipping costs, manufacturing costs, inventory costs, shelf space, landfill waste, etc. Everybody came out a winner.

If you want to make false statements, then get your facts straight first. Seems like you are stating as a fact a story that you have not seen, and have heard second hand from someone else, and got it all balled up in the process.

Enough of this garbage about Wallyworld - back to binos.
 
I continue to believe that the dominance of roofs is more one of fashion than of reason. If an optics company, particularly one that is already well established and recognized for its quality optics, be it Fuji, Nikon, Swarovski, or some other longtime player, would go out on a limb and produce a high quality porro that could match an alphas performance with ergonomics that aren't too bulky or heavy and come in at half the price or less of alphas, only snobs and fools would not considering buy them.


Brock

It might surprise you that some people just don't want or like porros, no matter how good they might seem to you or others. So, I guess according to your statement, that not only am I unreasonable, but also, that I am either a snob or a fool. Most likely a fool, since my grandaddy always said -"when you are arguing with a fool, make sure they are not doing the same thing".

I have bought any sold many good porros over the last 7 months - and I just don't care for them. Like Tero, I seem to have a severe case of roofitis.

This thread seemed to have started out as a heads up on some new Fuji binos, but alas, it seems like most threads to have degenerated into your never ending rants about the bino manufacturers, and all the marketing missteps they seem to be continually mired in, and what they coulda, shoulda, or woulda done.



tom
 
...
This thread seemed to have started out as a heads up on some new Fuji binos, but alas, it seems like most threads to have degenerated into your never ending rants about the bino manufacturers, and all the marketing missteps they seem to be continually mired in, and what they coulda, shoulda, or woulda done.



tom

True, and also the never ending talking back... Which fuels the fire.
-So, someone better stop first! ;)
 
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