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Wild Boar Cull (1 Viewer)

Farnboro John

Well-known member
I see the government has decided on selective culling to control boar numbers in Britain. Perhaps we should be told what they are aiming at (in terms of an "acceptable" population and range) and what criteria will be used to select individuals for culling?

Boars are already under hunting pressure from landowners and poachers, and they are not spreading rapidly from their core areas, so quite why this is suddenly necessary is a mystery.

John
 
Bet its a PR exersice especially after that bit of hysterical reporting over that Boar in the school playground a little while ago, amongst other things....reckon its an un-needed move at the moment and yet another knee jerk reaction.

Very Sad.

Like you I wonder what does amount to an acceptable level of population? Especially as as you say they are already under pressure.

Cheers
 
Perhaps they don't want the population to spread nationwide, producing as yet unmeasured problems before they start to deal with it.

Grey squirrels?
 
That old chestnut BTB ..It was part of an earlier Defra Wild Boar consultation on re-introduction and risk management assessments of the spread of disease from wild animals to cattle: The farming lobby is at it again I'd imagine

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/notifiable/tb/index.htm

Senior wildlife management advisor from Defra, Charlie Wilson, said he believed there were around 50 animals living in the Forest of Dean. And he explained there were a range of proposals, ranging from managing the species, to eradicating them from the countryside completely.

"Wild boar is a former native species that went extinct, perhaps as long ago as the 13th Century," he explained. "It has been suggested that they are a species that could be reintroduced.

"But they are a large, pretty formidable and potentially damaging species that we're not used to having in the British countryside."

'''It is believed there are two main populations of wild boar in the Forest of Dean - one close to Ross-on-Wye, which is of true wild boar, and a second, cross-breed, around Staunton.

Mr Wilson said the population had been on the increase due to animals escaping from farms or estates and breeding in wild woodlands in areas including the Forest of Dean.

"The biggest concern from the agricultural industry is the potential risk of disease,
" he said.

http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/37/9/2766
 
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Sounds like it. Interestingly the abstract suggests that the transmission is from cattle to wild boar, if I read it correctly. I imagine that the rationale for a boar cull on TB grounds would be that they act as a reservoir for re-infection of the cattle stock, as is suggested badgers do. I'm not sure this has been well demonstrated though - anyone got any evidence to support or refute this? The only good study evidence I have seen suggested badger culls actually increased the spread of bovine TB in the badger population - it was presumed by increasing population movement into previously occupied territory. Cant find the link for this though - sorry!
 
Perhaps they don't want the population to spread nationwide, producing as yet unmeasured problems before they start to deal with it.

Grey squirrels?

I agree with you Alan that maybe a Boar population boom may bring a lot of problems. Control them incase, rather than if there is a problem. Boars looks intimidating, and beauty is not in the eye of the beholder :eek!:.

It is finding a scapegoat each time for the existing problems that humans cause by their own thoughtlessness. Boars are this and that. TB (yelp!!!!) might be that one to. TB in Badgers and Boars (no proof at all). The threat of the Badger Cull comes into its own here for this reason.

I am with you Alan that that the Grey Squirrels are the most important issue that we around at the moment. If Grey Squirrels carried TB as Badgers (proof unfounded) and Boars (do not know enough or an excuse to kill them) maybe things would be different. Grey Squirrels would be controlled by now.

Grey Squirrels do not affect farming as such, but have an bad affect on Native Wildlife. I still think one of their lesser liked traits is the fact that they destroy trees, and that is not good either. I am sure that the Forestry Commission/Nature Reserves would have a few words to say about this too.

Strange how the native breeds (Red squirrels) seen to get the brunt of whatever problems are around, and the non native species (Grey squirrels) seem to run riot around the yard. Boars are native to Britain, they have a right to live too. It is like blaming all the wrong animals for having a right to live in the UK at all. Not a fair system at all.

Anyway, this thread is about Wild Boars, but to me the whole issue with Boars, Badgers, and Grey Squirrels are all interwined, and all have issues attached to them. Have opened a thread on the Badger cull for this reason too.
 
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Sounds like it. Interestingly the abstract suggests that the transmission is from cattle to wild boar, if I read it correctly. I imagine that the rationale for a boar cull on TB grounds would be that they act as a reservoir for re-infection of the cattle stock, as is suggested badgers do. I'm not sure this has been well demonstrated though - anyone got any evidence to support or refute this? The only good study evidence I have seen suggested badger culls actually increased the spread of bovine TB in the badger population - it was presumed by increasing population movement into previously occupied territory. Cant find the link for this though - sorry!

Hi gordon

This may be of interest to you

http://www.badgertrust.org.uk/Content/Home.asp

Latest rumblings about the so called Badger Cull.
 
I wasn't trying to deflect the discussion to squirrels, just using them as an example of how a relatively small problem can get out of hand if it isn't sorted out at an early stage.

Whether these escaped livestock are called wild boar or anything else doesn't change the circumstances. I have no problem with escaped livestock being controlled.
 
I wasn't trying to deflect the discussion to squirrels, just using them as an example of how a relatively small problem can get out of hand if it isn't sorted out at an early stage.

Whether these escaped livestock are called wild boar or anything else doesn't change the circumstances. I have no problem with escaped livestock being controlled.

Hi Alan

I know you where using the problem with the Squirrels as an example for the situation about the Boars. So I understand here. To me, I guess it is the present moment talking with the inequality of it all between species.

To me if wild Boars are allowed to breed, it is keeping them in areas that are suited to them that is the main thing. If they are naturally wild and left to roam free, human intervention may be needed. I feel this is when they may be problematic.

Yes, controlling them is the name of the game here. Shooting them for the he*l of it is unfair (unless definite proof about TB comes to play in a big way.)
 
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Hi Alan

I know you where using the problem with the Squirrels as an example for the situation about the Boars. So I understand here. To me, I guess it is the present moment talking with the inequality of it all between species.

To me if wild Boars are allowed to breed, it is keeping them in areas that are suited to them that is the main thing. If they are naturally wild and left to roam free, human intervention may be needed. I feel this is when they may be problematic.

Yes, controlling them is the name of the game here. Shooting them for the he*l of it is unfair (unless definite proof about TB comes to play in a big way.)


The squirrel situation is not a good analogy, wild boar were once native here and we exterminated them, whereas the grey squirrel is not native and we introduced them.

Wild boar do have a place in the UK in the right habitat and as most large herbivores will need to be culled at some stage due to lack of natural predators, which we also exterminated.

But lets let them grow a littel in number before a cull.

Mark
 
they are not spreading rapidly from their core areas, so quite why this is suddenly necessary is a mystery.

John

The agricultural industry have strong lobbyists and Defra listens!

Kathy

There is evidence that Badger and wild Boar are vectors for bTB, as are muntjac deer etc (although I believe it's a slightly different strain in Boar) (see on the first link I posted). The question/issue is slightly different in UK in that Boars are still limited as an introduced species, so any outbreaks are more likely to be a case of cattle transmitting the disease to wild boar. I'm not sure about badger to boar transmissions. Studies have been done in Europe where cross species (ie. boar to cattle) infection has occurred. One of the roles of Defra is to implement measures to reduce the risk of infection (any kind of infection) in livestock. If the Defra/Vets/Farmers perceive the spread of wild boar will increase the risk of transmission to cattle stocks, they could cull under the mandate of 'preventing/minimising the risks of bTB outbreaks' (at the moment fears of a problem here may be fueled by continental instances of cross infection).

One of the fundamental problems with the trials and hotspot target culls that followed the Krebbs report was badger were repopulating 'cleaned' areas and those areas outside perimeters of culls, experienced higher outbreaks of infection than they would have done otherwise. As such, only a massive and systematic cull of healthy badgers over fast tracts of the countryside (especially in Devon and Cornwall) were likely to succeed. Unpopular to public, expensive, probably impossible to locate all healthy badgers, neither Defra nor farmers wanted to be responsible for carrying out the blanket cull. In addition, non-Defra scientists posited that outbreaks of bTB were actually being primarily spread from cattle to cattle and not from badger contact. Moratoriums on the movement of infected livestock, introduction of better pre-movement testing, longer 'waiting' periods before movement of stock, to allow for potential incubation to expire, have not been adequate to controlling spread in UK. The amount of money that has been invested in failed attempts of control/destruction/compensation/trials/consultations/reports etc etc over the past 50 years, quite simply would have been better invested in cattle vaccine research and introduction.


Sooo .... ''It's far easier to cull a few boar now than further down the line to avoid the nightmare situation above we have with badgers'' would be the thinking of Defra's proposed cull of boar.

There is no scientific justification for the obliteration of badgers from swathes of countryside, as there is no scientific justification for the culling of boar.

Until Defra and MAFF sort out their farming policies to move from unhealthy intensive farming, we are stuck with culling badgers, boar etc to control bTB, culling wild birds, to 'control' HN1, F&Mouth, BSE etc etc

We will never irradiate bTB in wild populations of boar/badgers, it comes with their package, they are vectors and always will be as a species- other than making those species extinct as an option, all we can do is prevent the spread of it through domestic herds by improved farming techniques, such as improved husbandry, more locally produced meats and organic feeding with smaller herds.

Loads of background to Defra/bTB if you want a wade through.

To be honest anyway, I think I disagree with any animal being introduced for the purposes of hunting them but that's because I don't like hunting period. However, if populations of wild/feral Boar need to be limited now, proportions of them should be sterilised while numbers are still small enough to make that feasible.

Ps (of course, I'd suggest a very strong dart tranquiliser before anyone attempts to castrate a male adult boar ;))
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=47597&highlight=badger+cull,+public+consultation
 
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Perhaps we should contact our compatriots across the channel in France where 'WILD' boar are relatively common place. It would seem that our French cousins do not share 'our' paranoia and live side by side with this ferocious beast that could be a danger to our very existence.
Seriously! I have encountered Boar many times throughout France, I have seen a Jack Russell chasing the biggest boar you have ever seen through the forest. I have watched Black Woodpeckers with a party of French school children in Fontainbleau whilst two WILD boars fed within twenty yards. All I ask is that we consult the real people that know and not the media and 'muppets' that we have become to accept and told to believe, before we decide to eliminate a living creature for what could be little reason at all.
WHERE HAVE WE HEARED THAT BEFORE!

regards
Merlin
 
I too have been close to wild boar in Spain, they've run past where I was standing more than once, but I also recognise that the landscape and countryside they live in is vastly different to the intensively-farmed over-populated country we have here. The spaces are much larger and the habitat wilder - they are not relying on islands of woodland in an intensively farmed food factory.
 
The agricultural industry have strong lobbyists and Defra listens!

Kathy

There is evidence that Badger and wild Boar are vectors for bTB, as are muntjac deer etc (although I believe it's a slightly different strain in Boar) (see on the first link I posted). The question/issue is slightly different in UK in that Boars are still limited as an introduced species, so any outbreaks are more likely to be a case of cattle transmitting the disease to wild boar. I'm not sure about badger to boar transmissions. Studies have been done in Europe where cross species (ie. boar to cattle) infection has occurred. One of the roles of Defra is to implement measures to reduce the risk of infection (any kind of infection) in livestock. If the Defra/Vets/Farmers perceive the spread of wild boar will increase the risk of transmission to cattle stocks, they could cull under the mandate of 'preventing/minimising the risks of bTB outbreaks' (at the moment fears of a problem here may be fueled by continental instances of cross infection).

One of the fundamental problems with the trials and hotspot target culls that followed the Krebbs report was badger were repopulating 'cleaned' areas and those areas outside perimeters of culls, experienced higher outbreaks of infection than they would have done otherwise. As such, only a massive and systematic cull of healthy badgers over fast tracts of the countryside (especially in Devon and Cornwall) were likely to succeed. Unpopular to public, expensive, probably impossible to locate all healthy badgers, neither Defra nor farmers wanted to be responsible for carrying out the blanket cull. In addition, non-Defra scientists posited that outbreaks of bTB were actually being primarily spread from cattle to cattle and not from badger contact. Moratoriums on the movement of infected livestock, introduction of better pre-movement testing, longer 'waiting' periods before movement of stock, to allow for potential incubation to expire, have not been adequate to controlling spread in UK. The amount of money that has been invested in failed attempts of control/destruction/compensation/trials/consultations/reports etc etc over the past 50 years, quite simply would have been better invested in cattle vaccine research and introduction.


Sooo .... ''It's far easier to cull a few boar now than further down the line to avoid the nightmare situation above we have with badgers'' would be the thinking of Defra's proposed cull of boar.

There is no scientific justification for the obliteration of badgers from swathes of countryside, as there is no scientific justification for the culling of boar.

Until Defra and MAFF sort out their farming policies to move from unhealthy intensive farming, we are stuck with culling badgers, boar etc to control bTB, culling wild birds, to 'control' HN1, F&Mouth, BSE etc etc

We will never irradiate bTB in wild populations of boar/badgers, it comes with their package, they are vectors and always will be as a species- other than making those species extinct as an option, all we can do is prevent the spread of it through domestic herds by improved farming techniques, such as improved husbandry, more locally produced meats and organic feeding with smaller herds.

Loads of background to Defra/bTB if you want a wade through.

To be honest anyway, I think I disagree with any animal being introduced for the purposes of hunting them but that's because I don't like hunting period. However, if populations of wild/feral Boar need to be limited now, proportions of them should be sterilised while numbers are still small enough to make that feasible.

Ps (of course, I'd suggest a very strong dart tranquiliser before anyone attempts to castrate a male adult boar ;))
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=47597&highlight=badger+cull,+public+consultation

Hi Deborah

Thank you for your reply. Well put.

I agree that Badgers and boars, deer are Vectors for bTB. Whether they spread it to cattle as easily as is thought, and this what all the debate is about here. As you say it is the thought of using money, and resources wisely for vaccines in Cattle. Rather than killing swathes of wild animals.

I have gone off topic a little bit myself. ;) Of course as thread stated about shooting Boars it comes with if, why, buts and wheres. Should we shot them or not?. No, is my opinion at the moment. Not enough known about them.

bTB is such an emotive subject for many of us, and I, like everyone here would love to get down to the bottom of all of the issues as they are.
One day we will sort it out, but until then we will have long debates like we are having here. We are all putting the world to right, and I feel like doing that here.

I think, it is the frustration of finding an answer to a situation. We read about it, draw our own conclusions, and here we go again. ;) :eek!:
 
Not sure whether anything I wrote was 'off topic' Kathy - it's all relevant to agri-policy and countryside management, the context of which a boar cull would take place.

There's much that can be done: personally, i've signed petitions, written articles for magazines, lobbied MPs etc with regard to the Badger issue, which IMO, is far more effective than long debates on an internet forum. In the past, have been a fund raiser, press officer and drafted environmental policy for local political parties as well as NGO's - but even informing people of the issues is a helpful means of getting them engaged in processes that allows for direct public consultation, at that point, there's no need to sit back and 'let things happen' you can have your say and the powers of be, might, just might, realise there's the issue of public opinion if they want to get re-elected ;)
 
Not sure whether anything I wrote was 'off topic' Kathy - it's all relevant to agri-policy and countryside management, the context of which a boar cull would take place.

There's much that can be done: personally, i've signed petitions, written articles for magazines, lobbied MPs etc with regard to the Badger issue, which IMO, is far more effective than long debates on an internet forum. In the past, have been a fund raiser, press officer and drafted environmental policy for local political parties as well as NGO's - but even informing people of the issues is a helpful means of getting them engaged in processes that allows for direct public consultation, at that point, there's no need to sit back and 'let things happen' you can have your say and the powers of be, might, just might, realise there's the issue of public opinion if they want to get re-elected ;)

Hi Deborah

It was me going off-topic talking about Badgers, (not Boars). Yes there is a lot that need to be done (words and threads like this never resolve issues), It is interesting to know as much as anyone here. I was always in the dark about theses issue now it is good to have a better understanding of them as they are now.

As you say, Badgers and Boars are interlinked. Interesting that you have given us here some of your background therefore you are better informed than me, and others here.

Thank you for keeping us informed of the procedures involved.
 
I too have been close to wild boar in Spain, they've run past where I was standing more than once, but I also recognise that the landscape and countryside they live in is vastly different to the intensively-farmed over-populated country we have here. The spaces are much larger and the habitat wilder - they are not relying on islands of woodland in an intensively farmed food factory.

Lots of wild boar here too,they get shot by the local landowners only when caught destroying crops,but like Alan says more space and less intensively farmed land plus big forested protected areas make for a better balance.
Great animals though!!
 
Not sure what to make of this.

In a country like Britain, boar clearly need to be controlled to some extent, just as deer do.

However, having just read all the press reports they all seem to give the impression that the aim is now to get rid of the boar, rather than to control them sustainably.

I fear the population is too low to survive the extent of culling they are now likely to face in the next few years.

Hunting a species to extinction once is bad enough, doing it again is unforgiveable.
 
Except that these are simply escaped domestic livestock.

If they were sheep, horses or cattle roaming unconfined around the countryside and roads we'd expect the farmer to do something about it, as he's legally bound to, but in the case of these livestock which have strayed or been released they are somehow expected to behave differently, simply because they carry the word "wild" in their name and similar creatures once roamed the forests of Britain (when Britain had forests). Wild cattle once roamed the land too, are we to encourage free-range oxen?

They are escaped domestic livestock.
 
Except that these are simply escaped domestic livestock.

If they were sheep, horses or cattle roaming unconfined around the countryside and roads we'd expect the farmer to do something about it, as he's legally bound to, but in the case of these livestock which have strayed or been released they are somehow expected to behave differently, simply because they carry the word "wild" in their name and similar creatures once roamed the forests of Britain (when Britain had forests). Wild cattle once roamed the land too, are we to encourage free-range oxen?

They are escaped domestic livestock.

Not the same at all.

For a start most are the descendants of escaped livestock. The Kent and Sussex population has been around for decades.

Secondly sheep, horses and cattle are domestic forms of their wild ancestors. OK some domestic pig genes will be present because they interbreed, but wild boar are wild boar, whether wild or kept on a farm!
 
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