Lesser Scaup or aythya hybrid (1 Viewer)

marek_walford · Mar 24, 2004

Hi,

Can anybody help with the id of the following bird photographed at Marlow, Bucks, UK last week? There is very divided opinion as to whether it's a Lesser Scaup or a hybrid.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/bucksbirds/mysite/Pictures/Aythya.htm

I didn't see the bird myself so can't answer any questions.

Many thanks.

HH75 · Mar 24, 2004

Hi Marek,
I had noticed pics of this bird on the Surfbirds website yesterday.It seems that two features in particular have been seen as being contentious,namely the green(rather than purple)gloss to the head and the grey flanks.
In my opinion,the flanks look to be spot on for Lesser Scaup,being closely vermiculated,making them appear grey(the species doesn't show whitish flanks,as does Scaup).The colour of the sheen on the head has been debunked as an ID feature,with individuals of either species sometimes showing the 'wrong' colour.
Given that the bill pattern would seem to rule out a hybrid lookalike,with the black at the tip confined to the nail,I would say that it seems to be a male Lesser Scaup.Was the pattern of the spread upperwing noted?
Harry

Darrell Clegg · Mar 24, 2004

I'd really like to see the bird with it's wings spread too!

Harry I wasn't aware of the green-headed Lesser theory.

The problem I have with it being pure Lesser Scaup is that the vermiculations on the back appear to be very close together and neat. I've only ever seen that on hybrids, pure Lessers seem to have very coarse markings on the back. The bump on the head seems to be caused by feathers rather than it being the actual shape of the skull (pics 4 & 5) possibly indicating a Tufted Duck lineage.

Darrell

Steve Lister · Mar 24, 2004

To me the head shape looks to suggest a bit of Tufted Duck and the back/mantle looks overall too dark compared to the flanks for a Lesser Scaup. I would guess a hybrid of Tufted Duck with either Scaup or Lesser Scaup; what size is the bird? Anything on the wing pattern?

Steve

Joern Lehmhus · Mar 25, 2004

Hi all,
on Harry´s points pro lesser scaup I would agree, but my concern is the same as Darrells; the vermiculations on the back look too close together and too thin for Lesser Scaup.
Or is there more variation also on this than I know?
But with two such points; Green head and not typical vermiculations, this would be quite an atypical individual for Lesser Scaup.

Jörn

marek_walford · Mar 25, 2004

The wing pattern was seen well by several people and all of them said the white was confined to the secondaries and grey on the primaries. The size was said to be spot on (i.e. was compared to the Regent's Park bird).

Darrell Clegg · Mar 25, 2004

tom mckinney said:
I also thought, and please tell me if I'm talking crap, that the upperwing white is now also considered to be of dubious value as a clincher...???

We have a Greater Scaup on one of the local ponds (anyone who saw the Millbrook Bonaparte's Gull will know it) She is now about 13 years old and has always had the upperwing pattern of a Lesser Scaup.

Darrell

CJW · Mar 25, 2004

Harry Hussey said:
The colour of the sheen on the head has been debunked as an ID feature,with individuals of either species sometimes showing the 'wrong' colour.

Seems like it's not just Scaup sp. that have this contentious head-sheen mallarky......

http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19871

Chris

HH75 · Mar 25, 2004

Hi all,
On closer scrutiny,it appears that this bird may not be a Lesser Scaup,but not for the reasons mentioned.The feature that most concerns me now that I've seen the photo on a better monitor is the perceived darkness of the mantle,which contrasts far more with the flanks than I'd like for a 'pure' Lesser Scaup.In addition,do I detect a slight orange tone to the eye?
Most disturbingly,however,the bill pattern is much better for a Lesser Scaup or Scaup than for any hybrid lookalike....
It would be interesting to see what anybody who saw the bird in life thinks,as subtle colour tones are sometimes difficult to capture in photos/videograbs.There was a debate on the IBN(an Irish mailing group) about pics of a recent male Ferruginous Duck showing an apparent yellowish eye(and therefore not being a pure Ferruginous):anyone who had seen the bird,including me,responded to say that the iris was whitish in life,as expected.
Harry

marek_walford · Apr 2, 2004

It's moved to Berkshire. Lots more photos at http://www.samneeobrien.fsnet.co.uk/jPEG/Lesser-Scaup-collage.jpg

Michael Frankis · Apr 2, 2004

CJW said:
Seems like it's not just Scaup sp. that have this contentious head-sheen mallarky......

The head sheen on ducks is refracted light, and what wavelength gets refracted optimally depends on the angle of incidence of the light that gets refracted, relative to the observer's position. On any duck that shows a sheen, it can appear almost any colour, from green to purple to red-bronze. I think yellow is about the only colour I've not seen it show, and that's probably because it might not show well above the basic black of the feathers. Take a look at some tame Mallards on a sunny day from different angles. The sheen colour has no identification value at all.

Michael

Jane Turner · Apr 2, 2004

Ah but Michael... there are definite differences in the wavelengths of light preferentially reflected by different species, presumably a function of the refractive layer thickness/refractive index. Hence some speces show green more often than purple etc. I always reckon you can tell the difference between Starling and Spotless starling. Anyone fancy sponsoring a research programme?

Its time like this I'm glad I'm duckist!

Joern Lehmhus · Sep 4, 2006

Totally forgot about this one... will have a new try:

In my opinion:

Head shape and coloration:
Shape seems within the range of Lesser Scaup ; but a constant green head gloss is unusual for Lesser Scaup-though possible.

Note:
Tufted Duck x Greater Scaup Hybrids generally show a green head gloss;
Tufted Duck x Pochard show a purple -violet head gloss;

Bill coloration:
Dark nail coloration seems extensive for Lesser Scaup, but possible. Weak lighter subterminal band on bill looks wrong for Lesser Scaup.

Note:
Bill patterns like this are also found on Tufted Duck x Greater Scaup hybrids.
In Tufted Duck x Pochard hybrids the black on the bill tip is more extended, the bill shows an often quite visible light subterminal band and often gets darker towards the base.

Flanks and Back: greyish flanks seem to be slightly more coarsely vermiculated than the darker greyish back; marked contrast between back and flanks. In Lesser Scaup there should be more coarse vermiculations on back than on flanks and contrast also less.

Greater Scaup x Tufted Duck would show white flanks; Pochard x Tufted duck can show these grey tones on back and flanks.

The Eye looks yellow to me , fitting to Tufted duck, both Scaups, Greater Scaup x Tufted duck hybrids and some Pochard x Tufted Duck hybrids.

Most things would be in place for a Greater Scaup x Tufted Duck hybrid, but the grey flanks are really odd for that and make this in my opinion impossible.

Perhaps this could be a backcross or a trigen, as all Aythya hybrids seem to be fertile.

Have to think further...

Gentoo · Sep 4, 2006

The black nail on the bill seems too large for Lesser Scaup and the head should show more of a purple rather than green gloss. The flanks seem about the right shade for Lesser but the tone seems a bit off. Lesser should so more of a cold gray and some can be more white although not as bright as Greater. The peaked crown looks a little too peaked. I'm thinking it's perhaps Ferruginous DuckxPochard or Tufted Duck Pochard.

Joern Lehmhus · Sep 5, 2006

Hi Gentoo,
I think both suggestions do not fit well ... see these links:

Hybrids Pochard x Ferrugineous Duck

Such hybrids show a rusty brown head coloration and also a rusty brown breast, that can be darker than the head; also more black on the bill tip.

http://www.bavarianbirds.de/mix/hybrid.html

http://www.terra.es/personal7/jidies/HybridAythya.htm

http://www.birding.ch/hybridsandstuff/0902031.html

http://www.digimages.info/fulmilxnyr/fulmilxnyr.htm

http://pdubois.free.fr/espece.php?MyEspece=AYTFXN

http://users.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/hybrid/anyrxfer.shtml

Hybrids Pochard x Tufted Duck

Such birds show more black at the bill tip than the hybrid in question, and vermiculations are very fine on the flanks, (also I have not yet seen a hybrid of that combination with a green head gloss).

http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=686

http://gallery.bofhcam.org/p26843309.html

http://www.birder.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Tufted%20x%20pochard%20(3)[/url]

http://www.birding.ch/hybridsandstuff/180296.html

http://www.birding.ch/hybridsandstuff/090203romanshorn1.html

http://www.birding.ch/hybridsandstuff/11122001.html

In general, the black on the bill tip in any hybrid doesn’t seem to be less than in the parent species with the least amount of black on the bill tip. So, according to my experience so far, it seems to be impossible that a Tufted Duck and a Common Pochard produce a hybrid with a Scauplike bill…
However ,if you can prove this wrong I won’t be unhappy.

Gentoo · Sep 5, 2006

Yes I see that now. It just looked a little odd for Lesser Scaup to me.

Banshee · Sep 5, 2006

Looks like it has a Tufty style bump on its head, which pure Scaup lack...so my bet is a Scaup/ Tufty hybrid. But these things are notoriously tricky, so i wont be surprised if im wrong!.

Den

Gentoo · Sep 5, 2006

Banshee said:
Looks like it has a Tufty style bump on its head, which pure Scaup lack...so my bet is a Scaup/ Tufty hybrid. But these things are notoriously tricky, so i wont be surprised if im wrong!.

Den

I'm with you on that. I can do gull hybrids surprisingly well but waterfowl hybrids always seem to look slightly more like one parent than the other.

Joern Lehmhus · Sep 6, 2006

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