2012 UK Orchid season updates (2 Viewers)

the young hunter said:

Is this hybrid rare? I've only ever seen it once at Parkgate (I think the same plant pictured on the first page of the Late-spider section in Harraps).

Mike.

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Hi Mike

James H perhaps better placed than me to answer that, but I seem to remember reading a paper from Richard Bateman on LSO and the number of hybrids at English sites was, to me, surprisingly high.

I think he recorded it at all but one of the sites he visited. How they were determined (it was morphologically, not genetically), I'm not certain, but RMB is the BSBI referee for Ophrys.

It is with this background that I was ready to pronounce Rich's plants as hybrids.

British plants are odd in general, though, because I've seen LSO in several countries on the Coninent and they seem much less variable within individual populations. I've seen pics from some places, however, where they come in all shapes and sizes - but again perhaps with possible hybrid influence.

It is my understanding that LSO has a specific pollinator,which does not occur in England. Not sure if that is correct (someone who I consider should've known that told me), but if it is, that would mean British plants shouldn't survive - although I suspect human intervention (pollination) is keeping them where they are. I'd also suspect the gene pool is pretty low, meaning potential issues with them in the long term.

Sean

Ghostly Vision said:

Hi Mike

James H perhaps better placed than me to answer that, but I seem to remember reading a paper from Richard Bateman on LSO and the number of hybrids at English sites was, to me, surprisingly high.

I think he recorded it at all but one of the sites he visited. How they were determined (it was morphologically, not genetically), I'm not certain, but RMB is the BSBI referee for Ophrys.

It is with this background that I was ready to pronounce Rich's plants as hybrids.

British plants are odd in general, though, because I've seen LSO in several countries on the Coninent and they seem much less variable within individual populations. I've seen pics from some places, however, where they come in all shapes and sizes - but again perhaps with possible hybrid influence.

It is my understanding that LSO has a specific pollinator,which does not occur in England. Not sure if that is correct (someone who I consider should've known that told me), but if it is, that would mean British plants shouldn't survive - although I suspect human intervention (pollination) is keeping them where they are. I'd also suspect the gene pool is pretty low, meaning potential issues with them in the long term.

Sean

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Hi Sean

Thanks for your reply.

I'm intrigued and I've been a bit confused about this for a while. If it's based purely on morphological observations, in my opinion, the lip shape on Rich's plant is very good for LSO (broad and squarish) and the dorsal sepal is held vertically - not horizontally backwards as with Bee orchids. Furthermore, the number of green veins on the lateral sepals doesn't seem to be a particularly strong indicator of hybirdisation, certainly when looking at photos of supposidly pure LSO in Harraps (2005) - particularly the plant pictured on p 406 which not only exhibits numerous veins but also a long pointed lip, very like a plant on p 307 in Foley & Clarke (2005) - are we suggesting these are hybrids too?

It's interesting what you say about the pollinators though, does this mean that all existing populations are maintained through hand pollination? How did they survive before the advent of active conservation? Potentially the supposid high level of hybridisation is what's keeping the populations going, the Bee orchid parents maybe acting to bolster the LSO populations. Are the progeny fertile?

Mike.

the young hunter said:

Hi Sean

Thanks for your reply.

I'm intrigued and I've been a bit confused about this for a while. If it's based purely on morphological observations, in my opinion, the lip shape on Rich's plant is very good for LSO (broad and squarish) and the dorsal sepal is held vertically - not horizontally backwards as with Bee orchids. Furthermore, the number of green veins on the lateral sepals doesn't seem to be a particularly strong indicator of hybirdisation, certainly when looking at photos of supposidly pure LSO in Harraps (2005) - particularly the plant pictured on p 406 which not only exhibits numerous veins but also a long pointed lip, very like a plant on p 307 in Foley & Clarke (2005) - are we suggesting these are hybrids too?

It's interesting what you say about the pollinators though, does this mean that all existing populations are maintained through hand pollination? How did they survive before the advent of active conservation? Potentially the supposid high level of hybridisation is what's keeping the populations going, the Bee orchid parents maybe acting to bolster the LSO populations. Are the progeny fertile?

Mike.

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A very Interesting discussion, thanks to all of you.
Couple of things Mike, how did you confirm your Park Gate plant was a hybrid? Come to that, the same question applies if others of you have definitely seen the hybrid.

I see what you mean about the pointed sepals in the Harrap’s photograph, especially on the lowest flower, but for the life of me I can’t see more than three veins in any of them! Unfortunately I don’t have Foley & Clark.

Thanks again.
Alan

Also intrigued and quite a bit confused.

heakl said:

A very Interesting discussion, thanks to all of you.
Couple of things Mike, how did you confirm your Park Gate plant was a hybrid? Come to that, the same question applies if others of you have definitely seen the hybrid.

I see what you mean about the pointed sepals in the Harrap’s photograph, especially on the lowest flower, but for the life of me I can’t see more than three veins in any of them! Unfortunately I don’t have Foley & Clark.

Thanks again.
Alan

Also intrigued and quite a bit confused.

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Hi Alan

The Parkgate plant has since apparently been identified as a hybrid. I didn't identify it as such myself, (can't exactly place where I heard this but the memory stuck!) Certainly it does look quite different to the normal LSO - the lip is intermediate between both species (quite long and thin) and the sepals are an odd pinkish green. Ironically, when I first made my big Kent orchid visit in 2005, this was the first LSO I came across, or so I thought.

You're right Alan, the veins aren't particularly strong in that photo admittedly! My point is that the number of veins on the sepals of both Bee and LSO is a rather defunct identification feature in that I've often found supposidly pure LSO with multiple green veins like the ones below.


Mike.

(p.s. the Foley & Clarke book is an excellent book and definitely worth the money).

Red Helleborines

Fascinating tour with the warden today - chilterns site

Just back from north Lancs where I went to see the dark red helleborines. Lots now in flower on the limestone pavement.

Also had a look at the lady's slipper plants. All finished most didnt have seed pods developing either. Found four that had swelling seed pods, not many considering the numbers of plants there.

childhood memories said:

Fascinating tour with the warden today - chilterns site

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Yes he gives a good account of the histroy of the site and the biology of the plants. Seem to be very late this year. They had all finished by mid to late June last year!

The odd pyramidal returns

The strange pyramidal that met with some interest last year has re-appeared. I hope this years photographs aren't quite as bad as last years, at least you should be able to see something of the spurs and the peculiar shapes of the lip and petals.


Alan

The odd Broad-leaved is also back

The strange Broad-leaved Helleborine at the same site as the strange Pyramidal has also reappeared.

The bottom part of the spike looks fairly normal at the in bud stage but towards the top of the spike the bracts become a funny shape and have multiple flowers buds appearing from them, strange looking buds at that!

Alan

Hi all - if I get a bit more time later today I will post a reply on the LSO questions on this thread.

However, keeping with the updates theme of this thread............

Yesterday: saw the Red Helleborines at Princes Risborough and various helleborines all in bud in the local area.

Visited the 1986/1987 Ghost site. Conditions very damp. 78+ Yellow Bird's Nest.

Nice trip out, especially the conga line to see the Red Helleborines!!!!

Just popping out to check out another Lizard site

Cheers

James

James Hunter said:

Just popping out to check out another Lizard site

Cheers

James

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Certainly no birds about yesterday so it was nice to see two of these.

Cheers,

Andy.

the young hunter said:

It's interesting what you say about the pollinators though, does this mean that all existing populations are maintained through hand pollination? How did they survive before the advent of active conservation?

Mike.

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Harrap mentions that plants are long lived and therefore maintaining populations - how long do these plants live for potentially? Does anybody know when the pollinating Bee was last recorded in the UK?

Chris

Marsh Helleborine and Burnts

A trip to north Hampshire on Saturday in between the showers, first stop a small very wet fen for Marsh Helleborine. For those that know the site, the small stream running through the middle of the site is deeper than the top of willies! Marsh helles still a bit early, also var ocholeuca just coming into flower. Southern Marsh and possibly pugsley's marsh orchid in flower (although no matter how much I compare my photo’s with the books im not convinced). Next a hill site for Burnt’s, again just coming into flower. Frogs just coming into flower, common spotted, pyramid in flower and fragrant going over. If anyone knows the site and comes across the frog x common spotted hyb. can they please PM me the precise location?

fearnor said:

For those that know the site, the small stream running through the middle of the site is deeper than the top of willies!

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Blimey that is high!! |8.|

Late Spider x Bee orchid hybrid at Parkgate Down 2004 - 2008

In answer to a few queries on the subject I will put forward my opinion on the plant at Parkgate Down ( the years I've used are the first and last years I saw this particular plant at Parkgate).

As Mike states this is the same plant that headed the species account in Harrap's excellent book.

Before I start bare in mind that people like trying to put things in convenient boxes and quite often with orchids they defy our attempts to do so.

There will be some that think this plant was a hybrid, others that it is within natural variation of the species. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and we should respect each others views.

First up, for hybrids to exist, both plants need to exist close to each other.

When I first stumbled across this plant ( whilst searching for Musk Orchids ) it immediately struck me as odd.

Here is a break down of features I believe are indicative of a hybrid origin:

1. Both parents are growing in the vicinity
2. Although not very scientific - the general "gizz" is of intermediate
appearance. More like holoserica, but not quite right.
3. Inner perianth segments - intermediate in shape between the holoserica
(pink and always triangular) and apifera (horn-like, greeninsh and hairy)
4. Outer perianth segments - unusual colour for either species, but
longer,
narrower and more pointed like bee - less like the oval, broad short lso
sepals.
5. Has the pip on the bottom of the labellum that is diagnostic of
holoserica
6. The column and pollinia are held erect - more typical of apifera.
7. Labellum shape - angular and squarer - more like holoserica
8. The "eyebrows" above the "eyes" are more typical of apifera.Also, the
"shield" area below the "eyes" is flat and open - also more reminiscent
of apifera.

However, visiting several colonies throws up a huge difference in appearence - when does natural variation end and hybridisation begin??!!

As some contributions to section already know, I am particularly fascinated by this species - if there is sufficient interest I will start a separate thread.

Cheers for now!! :t:

James

ps saw the lizards near Maidstone ( as photographed by Tittletatler )

rmielcarek said:

Not sure if anyone gave you any feedback Brian but 7 flowering spikes, past their best, this morning. Majority of those (6) at the southern end of the site.

Rich M

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Dear Rich M,
Thanks for the update. Good to have a number flowering this year.

Gaitbarrows

Went on a Dark-red Helleborine mission to Gaitbarrows on saturday with plenty of success; lots of plants in flower on the limestone pavement behind the Lady's-slipper reintroduction spot. There's definitely a greater variation in colour forms here than at Bishop Middleham with some a light pinkish green all the way to the more typical deep crimson sometimes with purple tinges. About 5 Broad-leaved Helleborines still to flower.
It turns out Ian (IJS) was around on the same day but unfortunately I got there too late to cross paths!

Mike.

Late Spider x Bee

James Hunter said:

As some contributions to section already know, I am particularly fascinated by this species - if there is sufficient interest I will start a separate thread.

James

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Well done James, a brilliant post, many thanks.

I rather think there is sufficient interest and its likely to continue into future seasons, I'll be the first one to invite you to start a separate thread.

Alan

Photography

While struggling across the country this year with an expensive and increasingly heavy CANON kit - SLR, various lenses, tripod etc.. I have been repeatedly embarrassed by the the stunning performance of my wife's £90 LUMIX 'top pocket' compact which frequently out-competes me, whether snapping orchids or butterflies, but is particularly good in low light and has a brilliant quick focussing 1cm macro capability.

Consequently I have begun to look at bridge cameras and would appreciate any views or personal experience with these before I consign my current kit to my heritage camera collection!

It would seem that the usual suspects produce the best models i.e. CANON, NIKON, LUMIX ???

James

excellent stuff.

Can I trouble you with a couple more questions;

1. what are your views on the plants in posts 318 and 339 which have been suggested as hybrids?
2. do you know if there are any other pictures of the 2010 hybrid from near Wye, other than the side on photo published in Kent Botany 2010?

Rich M