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Upton Warren (12 Viewers)

With regard to kingfisher perches and Sparrowhawk predation.

A reference to MB's posting about the Kinfishers inability to offer itself as a tasty square meal, may be found in the AA Readers Digest Book of British birds P178.

"It's bright colouring is a defence adaptation: predators have learnt to leave the bird alone because its flesh is foul tasting"

I've seen the Sprawk take many small passerines from seed feeders but never a Kingfisher.
Mike.

I'm always dubious of things I read in books like that, books are not peer reviewed and are seldom based on scientific fact, the fact that there seems to be no papers on the subject makes me suspicious of the claim.

It's far more likely to do with it's adaptation to hunting and it's fitness. How would we know if a bird tastes foul to a predator? it does seem a bizarre claim to me.
 
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Ah but to many, many people Kingfishers ARE a difficult species! I've met people in the hides that were overjoyed to see & get a pic on a perch having never seen one in their whole life. It's all relative. ;) Anyway what's a Gropper?

Rob

I agree with FGE!

I think that nature reserves today are sustainable because people pay to be members and to visit them. If nobody paid then they probably wouldn't exist? The pleasure that I get and many other members get from seeing a Kingfisher close to is absolutely immense! In my opinion the future of the WWT may depend on ordinary nature lovers like me seeing beautiful birds like Kingfishers, Bitterns, Teal and Gulls for themselves in close quarters! Lets put it like this - I hope that I am present when my precious granddaughter, who is only 3, sees her first Kingfisher at Upton Warren because I am sure it will stimulate a lasting love of nature in her as it did in me some 50 odd years ago! I think birds are brilliant - but only if you can see them!
 
I'm always dubious of things I read in books like that, books are not peer reviewed and are seldom based on scientific fact, the fact that there seems to be no papers on the subject makes me suspicious of the claim.

It's far more likely to do with it's adaptation to hunting and it's fitness. How would we know if a bird tastes foul to a predator? it does seem a bizarre claim to me.

Hi Gavo - found the below (but of course could be the same misinformation being requoted again and again): www.healeydell.org.uk/files/Kingfisher.pdf. Interesting that you couldnt find any papers on the subject.

The point being made by Woodchat and Gertatron is that the issue of missing / trampled Kingfisher perches will be dealt with when the work parties are next working in that area of the reserve, rather than prioritising them on an ad hoc basis. Of course the more people who attend the work parties the more resources are available to undertake more tasks in different areas of the reserve.

From my observations I must admit from the East Hide that Kingfishers are more likely to use fence posts and even reed stems than the available sticks.
 
I agree with FGE!

I think that nature reserves today are sustainable because people pay to be members and to visit them. If nobody paid then they probably wouldn't exist? The pleasure that I get and many other members get from seeing a Kingfisher close to is absolutely immense! In my opinion the future of the WWT may depend on ordinary nature lovers like me seeing beautiful birds like Kingfishers, Bitterns, Teal and Gulls for themselves in close quarters! Lets put it like this - I hope that I am present when my precious granddaughter, who is only 3, sees her first Kingfisher at Upton Warren because I am sure it will stimulate a lasting love of nature in her as it did in me some 50 odd years ago! I think birds are brilliant - but only if you can see them!

Agree with a lot you added there,
BUT your last comment makes it sound like ...as long as I get what I pay for I am happy. Does that mean that you are not interested in the conservation and welfare of birds that you wont see.:eek!:
 
Hi Gavo - found the below (but of course could be the same misinformation being requoted again and again): www.healeydell.org.uk/files/Kingfisher.pdf. Interesting that you couldnt find any papers on the subject.

The point being made by Woodchat and Gertatron is that the issue of missing / trampled Kingfisher perches will be dealt with when the work parties are next working in that area of the reserve, rather than prioritising them on an ad hoc basis. Of course the more people who attend the work parties the more resources are available to undertake more tasks in different areas of the reserve.

From my observations I must admit from the East Hide that Kingfishers are more likely to use fence posts and even reed stems than the available sticks.

Hi Phil, I followed all the references on there and could find no reference to the claim, it is certainly an interesting theory and I am not in any doubt that there maybe some scientific evidence to it. It's just that I have a very suspicious ecology tutor who has instilled into me never to accept things as fact until you have found some scientific evidence. It is intersting that the readers digest book of british birds that I own has no listed author, which is why I am even more suspicious
 
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Ah but to many, many people Kingfishers ARE a difficult species! I've met people in the hides that were overjoyed to see & get a pic on a perch having never seen one in their whole life. It's all relative. ;) Anyway what's a Gropper?

Rob

Not disagreeing with you, Rob. Kingfishers are exquisite birds with obvious mass-appeal and you're right, many people in the general populace will never have seen one. Even fewer will ever have encountered a Grasshopper Warbler, a Nightjar or a Long-eared Owl and this is what makes these enigmatic, mysterious species so special. Even common species, like Willow Warblers and Tree Pipits are almost completely uknown to non-birders - a big shame because they are absolute gems. They may not have bright colours but they are masterpieces of subtle beauty and their songs are truly sublime. Proper 'birder's birds' IMO. :t:
 
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Not disagreeing with you, Rob. Kingfishers are exquisite birds with obvious mass-appeal and you're right, many people in the general populace will ever have seen one. Even fewer will ever have encountered a Grasshopper Warbler, a Nightjar or a Long-eared Owl and this is what makes these enigmatic, mysterious species so special. Even common species, like Willow Warblers and Tree Pipits are almost completely uknown to most non-birders - a big shame because they are absolute gems. They may not have bright colours but they are a masterpieces of subtle beauty and their songs are truly sublime. Proper 'birder's birds' IMO. :t:

Agree 100% Dave, althought the tree pipit is no longer as common as it should be it is now on the red list for BoCC being down by over 50% in since 1999 :-C
 
Agree with a lot you added there,
BUT your last comment makes it sound like ...as long as I get what I pay for I am happy. Does that mean that you are not interested in the conservation and welfare of birds that you wont see.:eek!:

I agree John. I pay my subs and whatever extra I can afford because wildlife is a precious resource that enriches all our lives if we open up our eyes and make the effort to enter their world. I contribute whatever I can because I truly believe it is worth conserving for its own sake - regardless of whether or not I'm blessed with pleasure of observing it or not. I want future generations to experience it and get as much out of it as I do. Sadly, as Gavo has highlighted, once- common species are now often harder to find.
 
I'm always dubious of things I read in books like that, books are not peer reviewed and are seldom based on scientific fact, the fact that there seems to be no papers on the subject makes me suspicious of the claim.

It's far more likely to do with it's adaptation to hunting and it's fitness. How would we know if a bird tastes foul to a predator? it does seem a bizarre claim to me.

I'm not suggesting that the Readers Digest book of 40 odd years ago is cast iron fact, merely pointing out one source of where the statement may have originated. I don't suppose there are any papers that specifically discredit the statement either.
 
Not disagreeing with you, Rob. Kingfishers are exquisite birds with obvious mass-appeal and you're right, many people in the general populace will never have seen one. Even fewer will ever have encountered a Grasshopper Warbler, a Nightjar or a Long-eared Owl and this is what makes these enigmatic, mysterious species so special. Even common species, like Willow Warblers and Tree Pipits are almost completely uknown to non-birders - a big shame because they are absolute gems. They may not have bright colours but they are masterpieces of subtle beauty and their songs are truly sublime. Proper 'birder's birds' IMO. :t:

Absolutley agree-another of my favourite birds to watch & photograph is the Dunnock. And I am very happy to get images of any bird or wildlife when I can. It's from seeing KFs at UW that I have got much more interested in all the other great subjects around. But JB will tell you I'm a bit slow with the camera sometimes when there is a notable about! |:S|

Rob
 
[/B]
Agree with a lot you added there,
BUT your last comment makes it sound like ...as long as I get what I pay for I am happy. Does that mean that you are not interested in the conservation and welfare of birds that you wont see.:eek!:

What a stupid comment? Of course I care about the welfare and conservation of all UK wildlife that's why I like many others have voluntarily increased our monthly subscriptions to the WWT 2 fold to help 'pay' the bills! I trust you have too? However, whether you like it or not - birds must be seen and heard otherwise a few birders and photographers here and there, despite their best intentions, won't on their own be able conserve our birds and wildlife for future generations! The more people who see them, photograph them and record them the better! It goes without saying that any member who bothers to register on this forum cares about their welfare and conservation - to suggest otherwise is, well 'stupid'! Anyway - all we are talking about is putting up a few perches for a Kingfisher so that we can enjoy seeing them close to and photographing them to show others! If it's a big problem I can soon poke some sticks in the bank for them - it takes five minutes!!!
 
From my point of view the kingfisher posts certainly add value. Personally I have more than enough KF images and rarely take a shot of it anymore unless conditions are exceptional.

It does though present a wonderful opportunity to observe them at very close quarters and I have witnessed them regurgitating pellets and tossing their catch in the air to turn it round, sights that I'm not sure I would otherwise have seen.

I can also recall being in the concrete hide when a party of disabled children came in and witnessed the KF on it's perch, great excitement was had by all.
I'm not sure that the installation of perches need be prioritised, as I see it it's a question of pushing a stick into the mud - job done!

Rob, nice to see that you're back in circulation, let me know if you find a Gropper:t:

Thanks Mike. I will, I will!
 
Absolutley agree-another of my favourite birds to watch & photograph is the Dunnock. And I am very happy to get images of any bird or wildlife when I can. It's from seeing KFs at UW that I have got much more interested in all the other great subjects around. But JB will tell you I'm a bit slow with the camera sometimes when there is a notable about! |:S|

Rob

Never Rob..every faith in you pulling out the big one in front of the concrete hide. B :)John
 
What a stupid comment? Of course I care about the welfare and conservation of all UK wildlife that's why I like many others have voluntarily increased our monthly subscriptions to the WWT 2 fold to help 'pay' the bills! I trust you have too? However, whether you like it or not - birds must be seen and heard otherwise a few birders and photographers here and there, despite their best intentions, won't on their own be able conserve our birds and wildlife for future generations! The more people who see them, photograph them and record them the better! It goes without saying that any member who bothers to register on this forum cares about their welfare and conservation - to suggest otherwise is, well 'stupid'! Anyway - all we are talking about is putting up a few perches for a Kingfisher so that we can enjoy seeing them close to and photographing them to show others! If it's a big problem I can soon poke some sticks in the bank for them - it takes five minutes!!!
when did I say the perches were a problem, it was me and Paul who got the new perches sorted, so don't try and make out that I have a problem with that. As I organised the first work parties 27 years ago, I think I have shown my commitment to the cause. So don't try to make out that it is a problem between birders and photographers, I went out of my way to cement relations with many photographers to quash that perceived problem. I think you will also find that I have bent over backwards to help the photographers by creating habitat in front of most of the hides. I have cut rides in the hen pool reeds, purely on a request from one of our photographers.
 
What a stupid comment? Of course I care about the welfare and conservation of all UK wildlife that's why I like many others have voluntarily increased our monthly subscriptions to the WWT 2 fold to help 'pay' the bills! I trust you have too? However, whether you like it or not - birds must be seen and heard otherwise a few birders and photographers here and there, despite their best intentions, won't on their own be able conserve our birds and wildlife for future generations! The more people who see them, photograph them and record them the better! It goes without saying that any member who bothers to register on this forum cares about their welfare and conservation - to suggest otherwise is, well 'stupid'! Anyway - all we are talking about is putting up a few perches for a Kingfisher so that we can enjoy seeing them close to and photographing them to show others! If it's a big problem I can soon poke some sticks in the bank for them - it takes five minutes!!!

I must say I find your tone highly objectionable. We are all entitled to air our opinions but to suggest someone's viewpoint is 'stupid' because it doesn't coincide with yours is absolutely not in the spirit of this forum. I strongly suggest you retract those remarks or you will be referred to a moderator.
 
With regards to the kingfishers and Sparrowhawk debate

We are bird watchers and I for one love to watch any birds of prey catching its food.I find it really exciting and it feels like your heart misses a beat or two. We can not stop the Sparrowhawk from taking Kingfishers of any other small birds. Its just doing what it needs to survive
 
With regards to the kingfishers and Sparrowhawk debate

We are bird watchers and I for one love to watch any birds of prey catching its food.I find it really exciting and it feels like your heart misses a beat or two. We can not stop the Sparrowhawk from taking Kingfishers of any other small birds. Its just doing what it needs to survive

Don't get me wrong. This was never an anti sparrowhawk debate. Good god that would make me one of those Songbird Survival nutters! I wanted to explore whether people felt that sticks 'poked in the bank' out in the open increased the risk to Kingfishers being predated. Entirely agree with your comment.
 
What a stupid comment? Of course I care about the welfare and conservation of all UK wildlife that's why I like many others have voluntarily increased our monthly subscriptions to the WWT 2 fold to help 'pay' the bills! I trust you have too? However, whether you like it or not - birds must be seen and heard otherwise a few birders and photographers here and there, despite their best intentions, won't on their own be able conserve our birds and wildlife for future generations! The more people who see them, photograph them and record them the better! It goes without saying that any member who bothers to register on this forum cares about their welfare and conservation - to suggest otherwise is, well 'stupid'! Anyway - all we are talking about is putting up a few perches for a Kingfisher so that we can enjoy seeing them close to and photographing them to show others! If it's a big problem I can soon poke some sticks in the bank for them - it takes five minutes!!!

OH No no. Please don't agree with me if you are then going to launch personal attacks on a person who has done everything he can to incorporate photographer's needs into the reserve. This was an open, interesting & polite discussion on the differing opinions of what actions might affect the wildlife & in what way.

Rob
 
What is your Upton bird of the year?

As the kingfisher debate is getting rather heated could I suggest a new topic now that we are coming to the end of the year? My choice would be the Redstart: it was the bird I had to do most work to see this summer. This may surprise Upton regulars since it seems everyone else only had to visit the Flashes or even peer out of the car window on the A38. I had about eight weeks of visits when it was seen just before I arrived or just after I left. Eventually through the good offices of our birdfinder extraordinaire (aka Woodchat) I managed to see two along the hedge at the far side of the Transmitter field.

So which bird meant most to you?

Peter
 
Don't get me wrong. This was never an anti sparrowhawk debate. Good god that would make me one of those Songbird Survival nutters! I wanted to explore whether people felt that sticks 'poked in the bank' out in the open increased the risk to Kingfishers being predated. Entirely agree with your comment.

And right to do so Gert. All these actions need examination whether it is perches, planting, siting of hides, bird feeders, cutting back growth & all the other interventions that take place in the management of a reserve.

Rob
 

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