American Crow vrs. Fish Crow (1 Viewer)

Terry O'Nolley · Dec 10, 2005

How diagnostic are the calls that crows make? I realize that juvenile American Crows are said to often sound like Fish Crows but, at this time of year, are the calls diagnostic?

I live in Silver Spring, MD and work in Baltimore (where there are Fish Crows).

The parking lot at the mall I often eat lunch at is usually awash in Gulls and Crows. Many of the crows I hear make the shorter, sharper sounds of Fish Crows, but I have also read that the variability of the American Crow's call makes ID based on sound unreliable.

Since the sizes do overlap, how does one determine if a given crow is an American Crow or a Fish Crow?

YES - it has come down to this! I am trying to pick Fish Crows out of mixed flocks of garbage-eating mall birds to raise my year list! (and to think, a few months ago I was baffled by why anyone would even want to keep a year list...

)

hudsonbirder · Dec 11, 2005

Fish Crow ID tip

Terry,
Can't comment on the calls authoritately, but thought you might use this visual ID point. Fish Crow fly with a faster, shallower wing beat than A. Crows. With a little practice it is a very helpful ID pointer.

Terry O'Nolley said:
How diagnostic are the calls that crows make? I realize that juvenile American Crows are said to often sound like Fish Crows but, at this time of year, are the calls diagnostic?

I live in Silver Spring, MD and work in Baltimore (where there are Fish Crows).

The parking lot at the mall I often eat lunch at is usually awash in Gulls and Crows. Many of the crows I hear make the shorter, sharper sounds of Fish Crows, but I have also read that the variability of the American Crow's call makes ID based on sound unreliable.

Since the sizes do overlap, how does one determine if a given crow is an American Crow or a Fish Crow?

YES - it has come down to this! I am trying to pick Fish Crows out of mixed flocks of garbage-eating mall birds to raise my year list! (and to think, a few months ago I was baffled by why anyone would even want to keep a year list... )

Terry O'Nolley · Dec 11, 2005

hudsonbirder said:
thought you might use this visual ID point. Fish Crow fly with a faster, shallower wing beat than A. Crows.

I had never heard of this before. I will certainly use this the next time I see them. Thanks!

Xenospiza · Dec 12, 2005

I did not find them much of a problem to separate on sound (but must admit it's ten years ago)...
A very helpful page (only the link to the normal call of American Crow does not work) is at: http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/FishCrow.htm

Tero · Dec 12, 2005

Well, if you know American Crow calls, then there is no problem at all once you hear Fish Crow the first time.

jforgham · Dec 12, 2005

American Crow vrs. Fish Crow

I'd go for a home win, with the american crows taking the lead through A. Rook before Jack Dawe equalises. A last minute thunderbolt from 25 yards caught Jack Pike, the fish crow keeper, off his line off his "line" and R. Aven celebrated his winner in style with some spectacular flight displays.
apologies, must be the festive season
Jono

Terry O'Nolley · May 28, 2008

jforgham said:
American Crow vrs. Fish Crow

I'd go for a home win, with the american crows taking the lead through A. Rook before Jack Dawe equalises. A last minute thunderbolt from 25 yards caught Jack Pike, the fish crow keeper, off his line off his "line" and R. Aven celebrated his winner in style with some spectacular flight displays.
apologies, must be the festive season
Jono

Thank you. That was quite helpful.

AlexC · May 28, 2008

Size can be iffy to estimate, but Fish Crows are smaller and structurally seem generally scragglier than Americans. ID is pretty clear via calls - and as far as juveniles go throughout the summer, watch the bird for consistency tone-wise, and if you're still on the fence, remember that juvenile American Crows will have a pink gape on their mouth and a blue iris.

That said, adults are pretty definitive on size/structure and call.

cnybirder · May 28, 2008

Here is a page that explains some differences by a noted Ornithologist that specializes in crows:
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/FishCrow.htm

Here is a Fish Crow sound:
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/ficr1.wav

Here is an American Crow begging sound:
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/crows.wav

I was lucky enough to have about 5 Fish Crows just down the road from me in Upstate NY in early March.

jmepler · May 28, 2008

According to Sibley (Field Guide to Birds of Eastern North America I think) they are reliably distinguished only by voice.

I agree with Tero, the Fish Crows that I hear are obviously not American Crows.

I would think that if you are hearing a questionable call that it is probably from an American Crow.

Mike

AlexC · May 28, 2008

jmepler said:
According to Sibley (Field Guide to Birds of Eastern North America I think) they are reliably distinguished only by voice.

Not so - at least not in the big Sibley:

American Crow:
Length 17.5", Wingspan 39", Weight 1 lb (450 g)

Fish Crow:
Length 15", Wingspan 36", Weight 10 oz (280 g)

Averages slightly smaller than American with subtle differences in shape; best distinguished by voice."

IMO, the best way doesn't mean the only reliable way - though perhaps more reliable.

jmepler · May 29, 2008

AlexC said:
Not so - at least not in the big Sibley:

Alex,

Your are correct, when referring to the Fish Crow the big Sibley says "best distinguished by voice".
However, the small Sibley East says "reliably distinguished only by voice".

I agree with your opinion that voice is not the only reliable way of identification, but for me it is definitely the most reliable.

I am going to have to pay more attention to my local crows now. I have about a 50/50 mix now, but getting more Fish and less American all the time. The American Crow is reported to be very susceptible to the West Nile Virus.

Mike

Terry O'Nolley · May 29, 2008

I was just curious because one of my field guides said that juvenile American Crows can make those short, higher-pitched little honks like Fish Crows.

ovenbird43 · May 29, 2008

I've heard juvenile American crows make nasal honking noises remeniscent of fish crows, but it's not exactly the same sound. The sound of the fish crow is pretty distinct and less variable. I agree that if you're not sure, just wait and see if the sound changes.

I've never tried to differentiate the 2 by size and don't know how reliable or easy that is. Occasionally when I see a crow flying silently above it seems obvious to me which species it is, other times I'm not so sure. With 2 species that are pretty close in size, the size of a single individual can be hard to determine or misleading, and generally takes some experience. Seeing the 2 together, though, makes it much more clear.

AlexC · May 29, 2008

jmepler said:
when referring to the Fish Crow the big Sibley says "best distinguished by voice".
However, the small Sibley East says "reliably distinguished only by voice".

Huh! Interesting that they word it differently! Thanks for the text comparison, Mike! As far as non-vocal differentiation, for me it came through time - first using voice to ID, then studying individuals whose identity had already been determined.

dhasmith · Jan 14, 2012

cnybirder said:
Here is a page that explains some differences by a noted Ornithologist that specializes in crows:
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/FishCrow.htm

Here is a Fish Crow sound:
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/ficr1.wav

Here is an American Crow begging sound:
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/crows.wav

I was lucky enough to have about 5 Fish Crows just down the road from me in Upstate NY in early March.

Where in "upstate NY" did you see the Fish Crows, I heard there were moving north, but had no idea how far, I live in Saratoga Springs

grebefeet9 · Jan 14, 2012

personally, i would just find out what the crows in a given area are by asking a local birder, and then go by assumption.

Bird_Bill · Jan 14, 2012

As mentioned above,apparent with call.If call can be associated with particular bird,
directly compared visually at same moment with CC,size differential is usually noticable.
If they're not "talking",frustrating experience.

Peter C. · Apr 10, 2012

Bird_Bill said:
As mentioned above,apparent with call.If call can be associated with particular bird,
directly compared visually at same moment with CC,size differential is usually noticable.
If they're not "talking",frustrating experience.

There are a heck of a lot of Fish Crows being reported in S. Ontario right now. Although some of them are undoubtedly genuine (birds seen interacting with American Crows, for example), I have this bad feeling about most of the sightings - or, to be more correct, "auditory identifications".

I have seen Fish Crows in good numbers in Florida in the past year, and thought I had that call down pat. Then, I was startled to hear something very similar - just not doubled - coming from my own back yard. Just happen to be a pair of American Crows nesting back there, and, of course, I was hearing the female begging.

However, as mentioned in the Cornell article (see Xeno's post #4) these calls "although rather similar, can generally be distinguished by their construction." But the rub is, a lot of people in Ontario are not going to be aware of this, and the tones of the two call types (again going by the Cornell piece) are very similar.

So, despite all the advice on caution, I think it would be quite easy for an observer, in the normal range of American Crow, to hear that begging call and jump to the wrong conclusion; especially with all the postings going up on various bird boards about Fish Crows being "everywhere!"

kuips · Apr 10, 2012

Very well put, Peter.

American Crow vrs. Fish Crow (1 Viewer)

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It's just a flesh wound.

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