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Ladder-backed–Nuttall's hybrid? CA, USA (1 Viewer)

Morg

Well-known member
I photographed this bird at the entrance to Big Morongo in CA in April. I had already seen what appeared to be Nuttall's Woodpecker (along the canyon) and Ladder-backed Woodpeckers (in Covington Park). This bird on the other hand appeared to be subtly intermediate in appearance and it occurs to me now that it may be a hybrid. Any thoughts from those with more experience of the species in question?
 

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Can I bump this?...

Any comments from those with experience of Nuttall's or Ladderbacked?

To me, this bird seemed intermediate between the two in terms of crown, cheek and upper back plumage. The fact that hybrids are known between the two species is quoted everywhere but seems to stem from one pretty old source. As far as I can tell there are no pics or descriptions of hybrids searchable on the net.

That said, my experience of both species is very close to zero, so I'm looking for comments here if poss...

Thanks

Geoff
 
I suppose it could be a hybrid, but I would have called it a Nuttall's. Ladder-backed lacks the black area at the top of the back, has more white in the face and the white is often tinged with buff. Ladder-backed usually has more red on the crown also.

Maybe it's a back-cross, but I'm having trouble seeing any pro Ladder-backed features.
 
For what my (inexpert) opinion's worth, I don't see much Ladder-backed in your bird either, though according to the distribution maps in BNA-online Big Morongo is in the contact zone between the 2 species so it's reasonable to look for hybrids there. I imagine you've already seen the BNA-online summary of the hybridization evidence, but in case you haven't here it is.

"Hybrids reported with Ladder-backed Woodpecker (n = 8 known specimens; Short 1971) . .. Hybrid identity based on specimens with plumage and size intermediate in morphology to parental species. Hybrids and other specimens indicating introgression between Nuttall’s and Ladder-backed woodpeckers occur where these 2 species are in contact in Kern Co. and San Bernardino Co., CA, and in some localities in nw. Baja California within region 160 km (100 mi.) long (north-south) and 40 km (25 mi.) wide between Ensenada and San Quintin (Short 1971)."

As you note, only one article seems to have been published on the subject, & that not a recent one.
 
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Hi guys, thanks for the responses.

I agree that the bird looks like a Nuttall's, however I am intrigued by the following five characters that I would think are pro-ladder backed

1. red crown feathers interspersed in the mid and fore crown

2. white feathering within the black upper back

3. buff tones to the loral area

4. black cheek patch narrower than typical nuttall's

5. white streak on face wider than typical nuttall's

In addition the appeared to have an outer tail feather that more closely matched the illustration in Sibley for LB rather than Nuttal's

What do you think?

Geoff
 
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Well, as I said, I'm no expert, but if I stumbled across your bird in California or Nevada (very rare in the latter) I'd call it a Nuttall's without too much hesitation. This is not to say that your bird doesn't display the Ladder-backed characteristics you specify, but just that I don't know the 2 species well enough to pronounce on their significance. Not very helpful, I know. Sorry.
 
Well, as I said, I'm no expert, but if I stumbled across your bird in California or Nevada (very rare in the latter) I'd call it a Nuttall's without too much hesitation. This is not to say that your bird doesn't display the Ladder-backed characteristics you specify, but just that I don't know the 2 species well enough to pronounce on their significance. Not very helpful, I know. Sorry.

Thanks for the comment - you are more of an expert on these spp than I am!

The issue only arose as I had just studied these two species in the Sibley guide just before photographing this bird. I was then frustrated when I couldn't quite identify it. Only when I put the camera and the guide together again later in the day did I realise why...

Here's another pic that shows the extent of red in the crown better and also shows the extent of black in the outer tail feathers.

I'm quite happy to hear whether this is all within normal variation for Nuttall's?
 

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The crown is fine for a Nuttall's. It varies. We used to get reports of Ladder-backed around here where the species does not occur based only on the amount of red on the crown. It doesn't work reliably.

Here is my photo of a female Nuttall's which except for the lack of red is a pretty good match for the back, tail and face patter of your bird.

Here is my photo of female Ladder-backed to show differences.

The Ladder-backed also occurs in a darker form which can look much like Nuttall's. For photos and discussion, have a look here. Note also the extent of red on the crown of the male.
 
I know little about these two species and less regarding hybrids.
It seems, however, that there´s a certain degree of variation (as in all birds).
In Sibley the black face markings in Nuttall´s - shows the white streak bordered by black - narrower than in Ladder-backed and the upper black marking as wider than the lower below the white streak. In Ladder the black markings are more or less equal in width. Such characters would be subject to variability, due to positions or perhaps moult etc.
This Nuttall´s (according to Garrett?) shows buff tuft above the bill and wide dark marking below the white streak which is Nuttall´s narrow and the red crown patch doesn´t reach the eye. Also note the buff outer tail feather

http://www.pbase.com/garrettlau/image/40735434

I wonder if white feathering among the black upper back would be such a problem.

http://www.pbase.com/dancinec/image/119248909

http://www.pbase.com/dancinec/nuttalls_woodpecker&page=all

JanJ
 
Thanks for those comments and very useful pics, Joe and JanJ - pbase search was really useful.

Guided by the overwhelming feeling for Nuttall's, I've had another close look at the photo of the bird from Big Morongo.

It strikes me that it could be a 1 year old bird based on the abraded brown primaries? If that is so (and correct me if that is wrong), could that account for traces of of an immature red crown alongside the adult plumage nape (picture taken early April)?

I also found these pics of very similar birds from the same site or close by:

http://www.pbase.com/gtepke/image/22007196

http://www.pbase.com/robpavey/image/24698938

http://www.pbase.com/robpavey/image/24698939

These are all posted as Ladder-backed... any comments?

Geoff
 
The first of the three images is correctly identified as a Ladder-backed and is in an area where Nuttall's does not occur.

However, the 2nd and 3rd images are not typical of Ladder-backed in my view. Both have too much dark in the face. The 2nd bird has too much dark on the upper back for a male, but this feature is not visible on the third image. However, they are from the same date and could well be the same bird. I would have identified them as Nuttall's.

FWIW, I have birded Big Morongo Preserve many times and do not recall ever seeing a Ladder-backed Woodpecker within the main part of the preserve. They reportedly do occur in the arid hills away from the riparian area, but the main hiking trails do not get into that habitat much. The ecological differences make hybrids relatively rare. However, the plumage similarities make hybrids hard to detect as well. I have seen Nuttall's X Downy but never knowingly seen Nuttall's X Ladder-backed.

It's possible that some of these birds may have some Ladder-backed genes in their ancestry, but they are not obviously hybrids. In particular, we see adult male Nuttall's with lots of red on the crown in my area where Ladder-backed is absent. I've never liked that as a field mark.
 
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