New Leica Scopes (1 Viewer)

I'm a top optics fan pure and simple. I own a couple examples from each of the "big three" and am not particularly loyal to any one brand. Certain models just perform better or worse within the optics line and I shop all the glass of a particular geometry before making a purchase. I own 4 Leica optics including the 77 APO and like Jeff B. stated, they've performed very well with top or nearly top performance in most categories. I will say that the Leica zoom eye-piece suffered from loss of sharpness near the edges, much more so than the Swarovski 20-60X but I lived with it due to optical superiority in other areas. In any case, I had fully intended to purchase the 82 APO when it became available, knowing full well that it would be an expensive upgrade but I'm not one to worry about that when it comes to optics. That was....until I saw the price! I think that Leica have completely missed the market with this scope and I'm disappointed to say that the astounding price difference compared to my current 77 APO and other first tier scopes will actually stop me from purchasing this new optic. There is a point at which the slight improvement just doesn't justify an extraordinary cost increase, even for a "gotta have the newest thing" guy like myself. The Kowa is a fantastic scope which at this time sounds to have a better focus mechanism, better color and brighter image than that of the 82 APO. I would personally feel foolish to spend a lot more money for the Leica when the main advantage it is has going for it is the FOV and much excitement about an eye peice. That's great but it's only one aspect of the image. If it was 5% better in every category then I wouldn't hesitate but I'm not going to just throw money away. I have to know that there is indeed value in my purchase even if the perceived value might only be recognized by me. I do understand that there is going to be extra cost involved with development but somehow I don't think retail price of the Leica is actually representative of the development cost spread over the estimated number of units that will sell. If the additional cost is representative, then I feel as if Leica is out of touch in spending as much as they did to bring us something marginally better in one or two categories. I feel as though they've lost a competitive advantage, at least as far as their new spotter is concerned.

Obviously this is speculative since I haven't seen the new scope but I imagine I'll be taking a long look through one within a few months. If I'm wrong and the Leica turns out to be a "super scope" then I'll come back here and eat my words. Although I'm sure it will be a fine product, I don't think I'll be eating my words anytime soon.

Interestingly, no - one has yet to come forward and say they have one! Would be keen to hear from someone who owns one - thanks.

I thought they had delayed the launch until November, to iron out problems at the instigation of the new director. Too late for me, I've decided on another supplier. As Patriot222 has said above and I did in an earlier post cannot justify to myself the additional near £1000 extra. I cannot believe that there will be that much improvement, purely my opinion and I stand to be proved wrong. One customer lost for Leica.


Phil

Can someone enlighten me about the 25-50x WW ASPH eyepiece field of view? Every other eyepiece for every other scope has field of view measured in feet at 1000 yards, or the metric equivalent. All I can get for this one is "with a subjective field of view of more than 60° across the entire zoom range." The word subjective bothers me a bit, as does not stating it in terms that allow comparison. Is there a rational explanation for not providing the traditional measure? Likewise, I can't get my head around what it would be like to look through an eyepiece at 50x that has a 60 degree field of view. I can only imagine that I have to move my eye back and forth across the eyepiece to see all of that.

Thanks!

By subjective, I think they mean what is generally reffered to as apparent field of view.

Apparant field of view is the real field of view in degrees, multiplied by the magnification. This is a measure of how big the image seems, not how much you can see thru it, and is why on a lot of zooms, the image seems to get bigger as you zoom in.

An apparent field of view lets eyepieces be universally compared, regardless of magnification, and a AFOV of 60 would be a pretty big image.

Let me see if I understand this. At 25x with an apparent field of view of 60 degrees, it is as though I cut the distance to the subject to 1/25th and then had a field of view of 60 degrees? And zooming to 50x, that would mean cutting the distance in half again, but still maintaining the same angle of visibility?

royharv said:

Can someone enlighten me about the 25-50x WW ASPH eyepiece field of view? Every other eyepiece for every other scope has field of view measured in feet at 1000 yards, or the metric equivalent. All I can get for this one is "with a subjective field of view of more than 60° across the entire zoom range." The word subjective bothers me a bit, as does not stating it in terms that allow comparison. Is there a rational explanation for not providing the traditional measure? Likewise, I can't get my head around what it would be like to look through an eyepiece at 50x that has a 60 degree field of view. I can only imagine that I have to move my eye back and forth across the eyepiece to see all of that.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

The AFOV of the original Leica zoom is a mere 38 degrees at 20x, increasing to almost 70 degrees at the other end. In simple terms, 38 degrees is tube like, 60 which is typical of high end binoculars is very wide and 70 is amazing. Fixed eyepieces for top scopes give ~70 degrees.

So compare the Leica + zoom to competitors, and it should wipe the floor with them. And that is where the prospective purchaser will be on seeing the price tag.

IMO what will make or break this scope is the zoom eyepiece, as there is nothing like it from other makers, assuming it lives up to expectations. I suspect the view with the fixed eyepieces will not be so different from the old scope. Not that I have tried the new one, so I might be totally wrong!

Leif said:

So compare the Leica + zoom to competitors, and it should wipe the floor with them. And that is where the prospective purchaser will be on seeing the price tag.

IMO what will make or break this scope is the zoom eyepiece, as there is nothing like it from other makers, assuming it lives up to expectations. I suspect the view with the fixed eyepieces will not be so different from the old scope. Not that I have tried the new one, so I might be totally wrong!

Click to expand...

Apart from the very similar zoom swarovski are releasing in spring - and it will fit the current range of scopes.

AC/DC said:

Apart from the very similar zoom swarovski are releasing in spring - and it will fit the current range of scopes.

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I didn't know that. Do you have a link?

Info and pics here:
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=121741

Looks impressive!

Leif said:

So compare the Leica + zoom to competitors, and it should wipe the floor with them. And that is where the prospective purchaser will be on seeing the price tag.

Click to expand...

Which is why I still find it unfathomable that numbers are not provided in terms that can be easily compared to the competitors.

royharv, take a look at the link I posted, particularly the 1st post.

The first picture was taken thru an eyepiece with a larger real field of view - there is more stuff in the picture. The second one was taken thru an eyepiece with a larger apparent field of view - the image seems a lot bigger - though some of this is to do with increased magnification. It is quite hard to understand.

I looked at the Swarovski link and was suitably impressed. I guess I will just have to wait, someday someone will express the numbers in terms that are easily compared.

AC/DC said:

Info and pics here:
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=121741

Looks impressive!

Click to expand...

Thanks. Yes, it does look impressive. That Leica scope will have to be seriously good then to justify the high price.

Out of curiosity I browsed about earlier and Ace cameras have following info, apologies if already posted

http://www.acecameras.co.uk/asp/web...words//recor/1/SearchFor//PT_ID/1/product.asp

Think I'll be sticking to my Televids for now.

Stewart

royharv said:

Which is why I still find it unfathomable that numbers are not provided in terms that can be easily compared to the competitors.

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For my own satisfaction I dug around for some formulas and did some calculations. I think I did them right (no guarantees) and figured that since I have been making a pain of myself about it I should share them in return.

The actual FOV in degrees is the apparent FOV divided by the power. The figure for apparent FOV for the new 25x-50x Leica zoom is given as 60 degrees. Turning that into the traditional feet-at-1000-yards that I am used to seeing it comes to 125.7 feet for 25x, and 62.8 feet for 50x.

So at the low magnification end 125.7 feet is almost identical to the fixed 30x eyepieces from Swarovski (126) and Kowa (128), but far better than their zooms at 20x (108 and 115 respectively). But being at a lower power takes a bit away from the numbers matching.

At the high magnification end the FOV at 50x (62.8 feet) is in the same ball park as the zooms at 60x (60 for Swarovski, 55 for Kowa). In the same ballpark, but the apparent FOV I calculated for the Swarovski zoom at 60x is 68.75 degrees. Which makes me wonder if the reason they stopped at 50x instead of 60x was to avoid having the new eyepiece that is being touted for the FOV showing narrower at the high end than the other zooms.

All of which still adds up to an impressive zoom eyepiece, at least as far as FOV numbers goes.

Thanks for everyone's help.

AC/DC said:

Info and pics here:
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=121741

Looks impressive!

Click to expand...

Thank you for the link!

I'll almost certainly go the route of the Swarovski and new eyepiece since I personally feel as though the administration at Leica has lost their minds. It seems strange for me to say that after being such a fan for over 14 years.

Leave it to Swarovski to sensibly offer us a wide angle zoom eyepiece that will work for existing scopes. That's ingenious on their part. :t:

Having started this thread convinced I was going to buy one of the new Leica's when they were released and having been a Leica user for years I have now made the break and bought a new scope produced by a competitor. I got an excellent deal, can buy the new eyepiece when it is released and still be £500 below the proposed Leica cost. I just could not see that the new scope would be worth paying that more.

As I have previously said I think, and its only my personal view, that Leica have made serious errors of judgement with the new scopes.

Phil

a swaro by any chance?

It is and I like it. Got a great deal from SW Optics in Truro, really pleasant to deal with - gave a very fair px on my Leica scope. Would recommend him. I will buy the new eyepiece after it has been out for a while.


Phil