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new petition re driven grouse shooting (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Mary
- Start date
silver prince
Well-known member
wonderfull,reaction from the national trust,i do hope they print this in the shooting times.and i would also like to add, speaking from experience, there is no skill,at all in hiting a moving target, with a shotgun,i had a go totally easy,
Adam W
Well-known member
In which case I'd strongly suggest taking up clay shooting as a sport and you may well be our next olympic champion as you're clearly blessed with a natural talent that speaking from experience most of us aren't.
keith
Well-known member
That could be why there are so many injured wildfowl flying around.
silver prince
Well-known member
i now shoot many birds,specialising, in birds in flight,us using a nikon camera and 500mm lens ,and let me put this into context, a speeding grouse flying towards you .to get one sharp photo out of burst is very difficult. if i was using my shotgun every out of focus shot would still be kill .you only need one pellet out of the 225,pluss 6 shot.you may deluded yourself that your sport is challenging,
any body with half reasonable hand eye control, can hit the fastest moving target ,this is what the shot gun was designed for to make killing fast moving birds very easy ,i did belong to the dark side ,but now i deplore All killing tell me what you like most about killing grouse is it the smack it makes the puff of feathers that comes off the smell of gun powder ,the rangerovers or the tweed suits
any body with half reasonable hand eye control, can hit the fastest moving target ,this is what the shot gun was designed for to make killing fast moving birds very easy ,i did belong to the dark side ,but now i deplore All killing tell me what you like most about killing grouse is it the smack it makes the puff of feathers that comes off the smell of gun powder ,the rangerovers or the tweed suits
_TheBirdNerd_
Fledgling birder.
Signed.
I have had to stay on a driven grouse reserve in Scotland (the head gamekeeper was friends with my dad and we went up for his wedding service). Overall, it was not a pleasant experience. Some of the keepers there knew I was a birder, and as soon as I got there I was given a lecture on how 'it should be legal to cull Buzzards'. When a beautiful Red Kite glided above us later that day, and I pointed it out to everyone, a keeper joked (I hope joked) 'I've got a whole one in the freezer if you'd like to have a look!'. The next day, I met a keeper who , very surprisingly was also a bird ringer. He, and another very arrogant keeper told me how 'the RSPB brainwashes me into loving birds of prey'. They also told me that the 'BTO lied about there being a small amount of breeding Hen Harriers' and told me that they 'had loads on the reserve (to them, loads they mean 2 nests) that needed to be culled'. Through the night the Arrogant keeper became quite aggressive towards me, and this made me upset to the point of crying (I was only 12 at the time). Along with this, I also overheard a keeper planning to kill an Otter that was supposedly eating the eggs of nesting Grouse.
The whole experience has made me realize how much of a bloody 'sport' driven shooting is. It is not a 'civilised pastime' , but a selfish demonstration of human cruelty and lust for power. I hope it is one day banned.
I have had to stay on a driven grouse reserve in Scotland (the head gamekeeper was friends with my dad and we went up for his wedding service). Overall, it was not a pleasant experience. Some of the keepers there knew I was a birder, and as soon as I got there I was given a lecture on how 'it should be legal to cull Buzzards'. When a beautiful Red Kite glided above us later that day, and I pointed it out to everyone, a keeper joked (I hope joked) 'I've got a whole one in the freezer if you'd like to have a look!'. The next day, I met a keeper who , very surprisingly was also a bird ringer. He, and another very arrogant keeper told me how 'the RSPB brainwashes me into loving birds of prey'. They also told me that the 'BTO lied about there being a small amount of breeding Hen Harriers' and told me that they 'had loads on the reserve (to them, loads they mean 2 nests) that needed to be culled'. Through the night the Arrogant keeper became quite aggressive towards me, and this made me upset to the point of crying (I was only 12 at the time). Along with this, I also overheard a keeper planning to kill an Otter that was supposedly eating the eggs of nesting Grouse.
The whole experience has made me realize how much of a bloody 'sport' driven shooting is. It is not a 'civilised pastime' , but a selfish demonstration of human cruelty and lust for power. I hope it is one day banned.
Chris-Leeds
Well-known member
On Monday I was walking along the footpath between Muker and Keld in North Yorks, seeing plenty of signs asking dog owners to keep their pets under control for the protection of ground nesting birds. The only birds pictured were pheasants and there were no sign or sound of grouse in the area. This is supposed to be an area where ravens have made a recovery and I hoped to see one or two. One thing I did see was an immature black backed gull float high up the valley only to be blasted out of the sky. That was the moment I realised I wasn't going to see a raven or any bird of prey bigger than a merlin which I also didn't see.
Mary
Well-known member
There is another informative and concise item on Mark Avery's blog, laying out the main points of the arguement, if anyone doesn't know about this yet http://markavery.info/2016/07/23/shot/
Over 63,000 now, so if nearly everyone who has already signed (uk only!) could get Granny, Mother-in-law etc to sign as well.......!
Over 63,000 now, so if nearly everyone who has already signed (uk only!) could get Granny, Mother-in-law etc to sign as well.......!
Sharp Shin
Stewart Belfield
Going back about 20 posts on this thread, there was mention of The Joint Action Plan to Increase the English Hen Harrier Population. It was always a shoddy 'plan' and I see that the RSPB has now decided to withdraw support for it. So, nothing very 'joint' about the 'plan' either.
The urgent thing to be done in the short term is to get signatures on the petition up to the critical 100,000 by 20th Sept. With a number of Hen Harriers days coming up next month, this is an achievable target.
Stewart
The urgent thing to be done in the short term is to get signatures on the petition up to the critical 100,000 by 20th Sept. With a number of Hen Harriers days coming up next month, this is an achievable target.
Stewart
John Cantelo
Well-known member
About a thousand added since yesterday - now over 64,000. I'm not sure whether it's Chris Packham's videos or the CA's second ill-considered attack on him that's doing the trick but the pace of signatures seems to be picking up .... has anyone on BF not signed yet?
ProwlingBoy
Active member
I think you're right it's both. As a Springwatch, etc, presenter Chris obviously has a following beyond birders and (at least on Twitter) the videos and news of the Countryside Alliance's attack (effectively asking the BBC to sack him) seem to have spread quite widely together.
The goal of achieving 100,000 signatures is now a 45/55 possibility (according to Mark Avery) and he has had 20,000 leaflets printed, see here, Could you deliver leaflets like this one to help spread the word even further. I have offered to deliver 500 of these in my part of London, as there seem to be fewer signers (per head) here than elsewhere in the country.
I'm sure Mark's assessment of the chances of success are about right, and of course a debate in Parliament, by itself, will probably lead nowhere just yet. But this years effort has taken the fight well beyond the birding community. And it may also make the RSPB think again, as they have over the Hen Harrier Action Plan.
The goal of achieving 100,000 signatures is now a 45/55 possibility (according to Mark Avery) and he has had 20,000 leaflets printed, see here, Could you deliver leaflets like this one to help spread the word even further. I have offered to deliver 500 of these in my part of London, as there seem to be fewer signers (per head) here than elsewhere in the country.
I'm sure Mark's assessment of the chances of success are about right, and of course a debate in Parliament, by itself, will probably lead nowhere just yet. But this years effort has taken the fight well beyond the birding community. And it may also make the RSPB think again, as they have over the Hen Harrier Action Plan.
Adam W
Well-known member
Considering that Birdforum apparently has almost 148,000(the majority from the UK I'm guessing)members I'm going to stick my neck out and say yes there's quite a few of us that haven't signed it.
148k is the grand total ever. Many will have lapsed in their enthusiasm for Birding and Birdforum, some sadly will have passed away.
Then there are the assholes like BarryWarrington, who joined, asked a question, got the answer, and left the community without even saying thank you!
The site gets around 2000 members visiting on a typical day. So the number of people visiting in a month is anywhere between 2000, and 60000. I could give you a more accurate number in a month from now! (collect daily visitor lists from the front page, paste them all together in a CSV format, convert to spreadsheet with each name on a new line, run a pivot table and count the number of rows
).
Then there are the assholes like BarryWarrington, who joined, asked a question, got the answer, and left the community without even saying thank you!
The site gets around 2000 members visiting on a typical day. So the number of people visiting in a month is anywhere between 2000, and 60000. I could give you a more accurate number in a month from now! (collect daily visitor lists from the front page, paste them all together in a CSV format, convert to spreadsheet with each name on a new line, run a pivot table and count the number of rows
).
John Cantelo
Well-known member
I appreciate that those who actually hunt may be loathe to sign the petition since they may regard it as the "thin end of the wedge" (and, before anyone makes assumptions, I personally would be against a blanket ban on hunting). However, given the overwhelming evidence that driven grouse shooting involves an unacceptable and widespread level of illegal persecution raptors (esp. Hen Harriers) plus strong evidence of other problems, I cannot see why any non-hunting birdwatcher would not sign a petition which, after all, will only result in a parliamentary debate on the issue. Surely nobody can object to giving this topic an airing at the highest level.
Adam W
Well-known member
You make several interesting points there John, Firstly you are right about this thin end of the wedge idea amongst hunters. Unfortunately we have a situation where there's a huge gap between both sides and too many people in the 'anti' camp who are more interested in hating people and causing trouble than they are conservation that even if I was 100% against Grouse shooting there's no way i'd sign this as I know its not in my own best interest. Before anyone says it I'm of course not suggesting that this is all about hating people or class issues etc but there's no denying that it is a factor. For example let for arguments sake say Grouse shooting got banned do you think the LACS would simply say great job done and leave it at that? of course they wouldn't they'd simply move straight on the the next group of people to hate and it wouldn't be long before that group would include me so there's noway I'm going to try and help that happen.
Secondly you say that you see no reason why any non hunter wouldn't sign well what about the fact that even given this weeks events the RSPB still do not support this campaign as they don't believe banning Grouse shooting is the best solution for conservation? I don't think we can overstate just how significant that is, the largest Bird conservation organisation we have with over a million members publicly state that they don't agree with this that's as devastating a blow as I can think of, It's pretty much the equivalent of BASC coming out in support of a ban.
Try and put yourself in a neutral position and look at the facts, even with 100,000 signatures that actually means that something like 99.85% of the population haven't signed it, The largest bird conservation group are saying no don't ban it as we don't think its the right answer and even though it's million members are free to disagree and sign it anyway 95% or more haven't. Does that really sound like grounds to change the law and ban something?
You are right though to point out that getting 100,000 signatures only means it has to be discussed which is something some people seem to have forgotten as they seem to be under the impression that if we reach the 100,000 mark we just ban Grouse shooting over night. I imagine though that any discussion would be along the lines of shall we ban Grouse shooting? Erm no, next.
Secondly you say that you see no reason why any non hunter wouldn't sign well what about the fact that even given this weeks events the RSPB still do not support this campaign as they don't believe banning Grouse shooting is the best solution for conservation? I don't think we can overstate just how significant that is, the largest Bird conservation organisation we have with over a million members publicly state that they don't agree with this that's as devastating a blow as I can think of, It's pretty much the equivalent of BASC coming out in support of a ban.
Try and put yourself in a neutral position and look at the facts, even with 100,000 signatures that actually means that something like 99.85% of the population haven't signed it, The largest bird conservation group are saying no don't ban it as we don't think its the right answer and even though it's million members are free to disagree and sign it anyway 95% or more haven't. Does that really sound like grounds to change the law and ban something?
You are right though to point out that getting 100,000 signatures only means it has to be discussed which is something some people seem to have forgotten as they seem to be under the impression that if we reach the 100,000 mark we just ban Grouse shooting over night. I imagine though that any discussion would be along the lines of shall we ban Grouse shooting? Erm no, next.
A lot more info can be found at markavery.info
Robin Edwards
Well-known member
There are countless petitions raised on numerous platforms dealing with all sorts of things that people feel passionate about and some will bring about change, others will plant the seeds of change that will come eventually. I haven't personally seen too many petitions raised where someone isn't genuinely wanting to do some good and in this case, being a force for good when it comes to BoP & preventing environmental damage on Grouse Moors.
I do find the notion of expecting half or more of the UK population to sign a petition to make it a serious topic for the our government to be very silly indeed though.
Bottom line then Adam, if you have to make a hard choice between allowing Grouse shooting to survive or allowing Hen Harrier to exist in UK, what's it to be?
It would be interesting to hear your response to what has just been posted on raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2016/07/27.
Seems to be the really unacceptable side of driven grouse shooting to me for a brewery supporting hen harriers through sales of a special hen harrier brew to be subjected to a hate campaign.
If you live in Bowland buy some hen harrier beer
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