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Buying Chinese products (binoculars) yes or no (3 Viewers)

ClRobles.I agree.
But if zen is selling a lot, the other companys have to think more about their strategy.
No doubt, as I said I find the massive price increases troubling and wish more care on the alphas part was being taken during these economic times... I think if a small price decrease was put in order instead of these increases more would think of investing in their products..... But maybe I'm wrong and the alphas know what their doing but it befuddles me?
 
Zen buyers already knew the market trend was going in and took advantage of it! It is very good business! But as I said be careful in what you ask for... If cheap is the only criteria then you got it... but if continued R&D and service is the goal, well then I think you are missing the point!

To be fair, it does seem that Zen's bringing out the 7x36 and 9x36 models soon is in response to Steve C's efforts here on BF and being in communication with Zen. I'm sure that's what Kristoffer is referring to, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I wonder though, when I think of these Chinese start-ups, about the following scenario. Image a few years down the road and the focus axle (or something) on say, Zens, start to break because they're made of pot cheese or some such and an explosion of warranty claims ensue. How long do you think Zen will stay in business or resurrect as Siddhartha Optics dodging liability?

You could start an "optics" company tomorrow pretty easily, and probably pretty cheaply. Take out a fictitious name, fly to China and get them to sell you what they make for everyone else (with your logo on it), set up a website, take out some ads, give a few to magazines and enthusiasts on sites like BF and 24 Hour Campfire, and voila! Lucky Lotus Optics is born.
If things go south, move to the Bahamas.
 
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To be fair, it does seem that Zen's bringing out the 7x36 and 9x36 models soon is in response to Steve C's efforts here on BF and being in communication with Zen. I'm sure that's what Kristoffer is referring to, please correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm sure your right kevin but the problem is that ZR wants to do what every business wants to do.... Grow the business! Right now ZR is what I would classify as a "Boutique" business. The only way for ZR to grow is to sell to the masses.... The masses want 8x42 and 10x42 bins. So the challenge for ZR was not in seeing what the market conditions are now but what they will be in 3 to 5 years.... Buy to many 7x36 and sink the ZR ship... Do you see what I'm saying. And if ZR does their homework and do survive they will help to change the landscape of the industry, which I don't think is a healthy change and an end of optical innovation in the name of low price point bins!
 
.........No company likes losses and enough losses there will be no more company! Therefore companies and the buyers for companies are keenly in tune with market trends and demand the manufacture of products they believe their consumer will buy!

This is excellent in classical economic theory, but rings a little hollow given what´s happened worldwide in the last couple of years. At the centre of all production and distribution is the financial sector....obviously something is really, really rotten with the entire system and I´m at a loss to explain, for example, the massive price rises you correctly bemoan by the "alphas". They don´t make any economic sense, but nothing does lately. (Like rotten banks staying in business at our expense).

And of course economics/politics is everything, the aggregate of our individual consumer choices determines what happens worldwide. I´m simply not convinced that criticising the optics producers of one country, based on the human rights (or workers´rights) issues in that country, is valid. Firstly, capitalism worldwide was founded on slavery, war and imperialism, even if it led to "liberal democracy" for the élites of the planet. It must make the Chinese laugh wryly to be criticised by those of us who founded and protected our systems (and our alpha companies in all sectors) on the most abominable human rights abuses in history. Secondly, if it is justified to boycott Chinese goods on political/human rights grounds, why is it not justified to also boycott European or U.S. goods on exactly the same kinds of issues? And I´m not talking about historical abuses here, I´m talking about right now, current practice worldwide....for example, and without spelling it out, folks, have a look at the worldwide human rights consequences of the so-called "War(s) on Terror".

There. I´ve nailed my flag to the mast now so if you don´t hear from me, I´ve been "rendered". Extraordinarily.;)
 
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This is excellent in classical economic theory, but rings a little hollow given what´s happened worldwide in the last couple of years. At the centre of all production and distribution is the financial sector....obviously something is really, really rotten with the entire system and I´m at a loss to explain, for example, the massive price rises you correctly bemoan by the "alphas". They don´t make any economic sense, but nothing does lately.
Not really Sancho.... They still apply. Yes the banking industry and greed has collapsed many good businesses but the strong who still practice good buying and treat their customers correctly will thrive. I am a senior mgr for the worlds 6th largest retailer and through all this upheaval we have still shown growth in merchandise sales. One of only several companies who have.... Can you guess my company?
 
Getting a little off-topic here I realize, but, out of curiosity, what is known about the Zen-Ray Optics Company other than it's Oregon based & imports all or most of its stock from China? When was it founded? Who owns it? What are the value of its sales? How successful is it vis-a-vis the competition? How much (if any) design imput does it have in the stuff it sells.

As I said, just curious. I have all the optical gear I "need" (ha ha) at the moment & am not in the market for any more
 
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.............I am a senior mgr for the worlds 6th largest retailer and through all this upheaval we have still shown growth in merchandise sales. One of only several companies who have.... Can you guess my company?
No, and I´m not going to cheat by googling "sixth largest retailer"...go on, tell us!!! but it´s great to hear that someone´s doing well in the current climate, CL, congratulations!B :)

Edit: I cheated. I googled for "World´s Sixth Largest Retailer", and ironically, I got this:
http://news.alibaba.com/article/det...62-1-china-becomes-world%27s-6th-largest.html
 
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No, and I´m not going to cheat by googling "sixth largest retailer"...go on, tell us!!! but it´s great to hear that someone´s doing well in the current climate, CL, congratulations!B :)

Edit: I cheated. I googled for "World´s Sixth Largest Retailer", and ironically, I got this:
http://news.alibaba.com/article/det...62-1-china-becomes-world%27s-6th-largest.html
hahaha that's funny! I work for Costco and no we don't have warehouses in China main land though we do in Taiwan. Costco works tirelessly to bring the "highest quality" merchandise for the best price possible and yes we do have a lot of stuff from china. But our optics are mostly Steiner. Enough of the pitch but just trying to re-enforce the position that there are only two roads we as optic enthusiast can follow.... One is the pursuit of optical excellence and the other is the pursuit of lower cost bins...

fyi - all the retail studies on google are years old and show Costco as #9. We have grown in both size and sales and now own the #6 spot. By the way we do an incredible amount of charity work and do more for our employees in the form of salaries and benefits than any other retailer on the planet!
 
I suppose this all makes interesting discussion, and I admit I find it educational... on many levels.

It seems to me that those, including me, who were in position to offer reviews of this class of Chinese ED binoculars, certainly compared them to the alpha in terms of image quality, but, I for one never did and do not now, take the position that these are the absolute equal of the alpha class glass. What they are is far, far closer to the alpha class than anything else in the mid price range. The fact is the step up from the mid price glass to the alpha since Pentax phase corrected the DCF WP has been reduced a bunch. These have reduced it more.

When I get to an A-B comparison of any of the alphas and either my ZEN ED or Promaster, or the Atlas Intrepid I reviewed, yes there are certain attributes of the alphas that are better than the ZEN class glass. But not every alpha beats the ZEN in every facet.

I submit that firms like Vortex may suffer more problems from these than the alphas will. Here, as an example, for about the price of a Fury, is a binocular that bests the Fury, the Viper, and the Razor. It may not beat the Razor image much, but for half the price, well... I think the upheaval that these might cause is in the mid price range, not the alpha range and that the dropping prices and increasing quality will come below $1,000 rather than above it.

I really hope the alpha class producers do not go out of business. I will never feel that the extortionist prices for one of their instruments is justified, so they realistically never had much chance to make anything from me. I think if they do quit binoculars, it will be because they finally reached the limit of how much money people are willing to spend.
 
Well Toyota and Lexus have not put Mercedes and BMW out of business and they do make cars that rival their Bavarian and German counterparts.... But there are many more luxury car enthusiasts than there are high end bin collectors....
 
Not a good analogy, CL.

Lexus have pretty much reached price parody with the Germans -and- the biggest threat to MB is MB. In 2007 the Consumer Reports Annual Auto Survey (nearly 1 million respondents) ranked MB as THE MOST unreliable car made, by a wide margin. BMW was about middle of the pack, and Lexus was #1 or 2 best, as I recall.
For the sake of full disclosure, MB did rise to second to last in 2008, ahead of I believe, Range Rover.
 
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well I can tell you that consumer reports is about as reliable as Yugo! I don't believe anything they say..... They lost credibility years ago but thats another thread... You can see my point even if one believes the analogy has miss the target.
 
.....By the way we do an incredible amount of charity work and do more for our employees in the form of salaries and benefits than any other retailer on the planet!
Excellent. And you sell Steiner bins too....I´ll be first in the queue when you open here!!!
 
Without belaboring the point CL, you might be missing the point. This isn't a CR review or shootout, it is the annual survey of car owners.

For your point to be usable in the context of this thread the pricing of Chin Bins and German/Austrian bins would have to be similar.

But I agree, that really is another thread.
 
Im not missing the point I understand..... And dont want to bicker just want to point out what the loss of the big four will mean for our hobby...
 
How did suddenly Japan enter this thread? I had no idea that anyone had problems buying Kowa, Kamakura or Nikon.

Well Toyota and Lexus have not put Mercedes and BMW out of business and they do make cars that rival their Bavarian and German counterparts.... But there are many more luxury car enthusiasts than there are high end bin collectors....
 
your over thinking this Kristoffer... Its a simple market analogy... And I dont have anything against China either but they will not drive innovation the Japan and Europe does in the optical field!
 
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