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Buying Chinese products (binoculars) yes or no (4 Viewers)

I myself have never bought any product because I wanted to support a companies innovation. I have already bought a product because I thought it's the best available.

Regarding the car-analogy: yes there are so many funny copies of Mercedes and others now. But are those a threat to Mercedes, BMW etc.? No, they aren't. Nobody in western countries will buy such things. And in China, those who can afford buy of course the real Mercedes, not the fake one. China is an very important market for Merceds, BMW, Porsche etc. And it will be, as long as those companies manage to build the best cars and keep their luxury-image (where image is even more important than making the best, see post 53).

Binoculars are not as good as a status symbols as a car. But if birding ever should emerge as a market in China, I am sure Zeiss, Leica and Swarovski would do good sales there, as long as they keep making the best binoculars.

Florian
 
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I myself have never bought any product because I wanted to support a companies innovation. I have already bought a product because I thought it's the best available.
But you are making my point here..... Without innovation there is no best product! Only best available! So do you want want the best to keep being innovative and pushing the optical envelope or do you do you want to settle for where we are at now at a lower price and lower quality?
 
your over thinking this Kristoffer... Its a simple market analogy... And I dont have anything against China either but they will not drive innovation the Japan and Europe does in the optical field!

I think we'll see more original R&D and less copying from China in the future.
 
I think we'll see more original R&D and less copying from China in the future.
I truly hope so dusty but at the price point that we are at with the likes of ZR and Vortex and such I don't think so.... Original R&D means a huge investment in engineering and retooling and that means increased prices! Then the luster falls off the product? would you be willing to $1200 for a new ZR HD2? Especially when you can find EDG's, EL's, FL's, and ultravids for close to this? I know I wouldn't and it has nothing to do with anything but quality and the history of service provided by the top four...
 
Without innovation there is no best product!

I'm with you here. I guess that's the chance also for the future of companies like Leica, Swaro, Zeiss, Mercedes, etc. Being a step ahead in R+D and preserving the century old reputation by assuring excellent build quality and service. There will always be enough who are willing to pay good money to get the best available (me it's only for one binocular, for all the rest of the stuff I own I actually prefer sth. that is cheap and does the job).
 
Original R&D means a huge investment in engineering and retooling and that means increased prices!

I am sure Chinese optics companies will soon be able to have the same R+D as other companies. The question is if they really want to do the required efforts (see quote). And if they do, we'll likely have a situation like Lexus vs. Mercedes. A chinese bin that is technically equal or better than a Leica or Zeiss, but that looks duller and that will never get the same brand-image within the next century or so...
 
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I am sure Chinese optics companies will soon be able to have the same R+D as other companies. They question is if they really want to do the required efforts (see quote). And if they do, we'll likely have a situation like Lexus vs. Mercedes. A chinese bin that is technically equal or better than a Leica or Zeiss, but that looks duller and that will never get the same brand-image within the next century or so...
And like Lexus at a increased price...
 
I think we'll see more original R&D and less copying from China in the future.

or maybe we won't.
at least as long as it is cheaper and easier to steal someone else's know-how:

http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,512914,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,465041,00.html

http://www.welt.de/webwelt/article4162853/Trojaner-aus-China-bedrohen-deutsche-Stromnetze.html

http://www.n-tv.de/wirtschaft/meldungen/Warnung-vor-Spionage-aus-China-article238522.html

it's all fine and well to have competition in the economic world. it may lead to innovation and better and cheaper products.

but the (underlying) problem(s) with certain low-wage countries - and one in particular - is very different than the normal competition among manufacturers for customers' attention and money.
 
Why does everyone discuss if China steals innovations or not? It is an American company for all I know and does not seem more Chinese then Nikons monarch series. If the hq is situated in USA it is American company, not Chinese. Would you react in the same way if any European or usa company borrowed/stole/took after some new design? And I am sure that has happened.
 
I must admit that I find it kind of hypocritical for many people in the west to decry the, admittedly, horrendous record of China in the field of human rights. Does no one study history anymore ( or even watch the news! ). Or is this a " libetarian" pop at the political system in China, or even "sour grapes" because they've wholly embraced "free market economics" and are rather better at it than we are!!!!
Chris
 
I think you're correct, CL, that there will be cost increases associated with R&D, and increased wages (high tech industry wages in China have already been increasing over the past decade, although they are still very low compared to the West), but I'm not sure about your numbers. The real numbers, of course, are anybody's guess, but at a 50% increase, binoculars like the ZRS and Zen ED would still be bargains, and at double their "street price" the Chinese EDs would still be 30-50% less than similar "alpha" glass.
 
Good point, of course. Older companies like Leupold, Bushnell, Nikon and Minox are choosing to make binoculars in China, as are newer startups like Kruger, Vortex and Zen-Ray.

Why does everyone discuss if China steals innovations or not? It is an American company for all I know and does not seem more Chinese then Nikons monarch series. If the hq is situated in USA it is American company, not Chinese. Would you react in the same way if any European or usa company borrowed/stole/took after some new design? And I am sure that has happened.
 
I think we will have to remember that it takes quite a while to build up a good name. We here on bfs optic section are quite interested and are often willing to test out new products, but the average birder is perhaps a bit more conservative. I can´t remember when I saw a fellow birder with a bin from a brand other then S L or Z, I have never seen a vortex, stokes, or what all the good new brands are called. The only deviation if you could call it that is a younger guy who uses a Pentax. I have never even see anyone use a Nikon. So it will probably take some time before the conservative middleaged man will be as inclined to pick a Zen as a Zeiss. Atleast in Sweden, is it a conservative country perhaps?

I think you're correct, CL, that there will be cost increases associated with R&D, and increased wages (high tech industry wages in China have already been increasing over the past decade, although they are still very low compared to the West), but I'm not sure about your numbers. The real numbers, of course, are anybody's guess, but at a 50% increase, binoculars like the ZRS and Zen ED would still be bargains, and at double their "street price" the Chinese EDs would still be 30-50% less than similar "alpha" glass.
 
I must admit that I find it kind of hypocritical for many people in the west to decry the, admittedly, horrendous record of China in the field of human rights. Does no one study history anymore ( or even watch the news! ). Or is this a " libetarian" pop at the political system in China, or even "sour grapes" because they've wholly embraced "free market economics" and are rather better at it than we are!!!!
Chris

Read a little bit of what's going on in Tibet and you will see the difference... Nobody said "we are so much better than China so we are going to tell them what to do". No, and I critic my government as well. But letting peoples dies and saying, "oh, who are we to tell others what to do, we are not better than them", is definitively not a good idea. In fact, this is exactly what totalitarian government want: mind your own business (so we can continue to do what we want).
 
Getting a little off-topic here I realize, but, out of curiosity, what is known about the Zen-Ray Optics Company other than it's Oregon based & imports all or most of its stock from China? When was it founded? Who owns it? What are the value of its sales? How successful is it vis-a-vis the competition? How much (if any) design imput does it have in the stuff it sells.

Bump. [Just in case there's any interest in this small question now that the discussion of the future of the optical industry as a whole seems to be petering out . . .]
 
There seems to have been a fair amount posted on this, plus ZR has a web page, and you can probably ask Charles this via email. He seems to be pretty forthcoming. I don't know that he's an engineer, but I recall that he simply thought by working with an overseas production company he could provide high quality binoculars that were more affordable than the "alphas". Whether he provided specific design elements or simply a list of features he wanted I don't know. Not that different from the Vortex story, really (a dentist left that profession to run a birding shop and got the idea that he could have good-quality binoculars produced overseas for a lot less than the "top" brands). I think the company supports the local birding community as well.

Bump. [Just in case there's any interest in this small question now that the discussion of the future of the optical industry as a whole seems to be petering out . . .]
 
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There seems to have been a fair amount posted on this, plus ZR has a web page, and you can probably ask Charles this via email. He seems to be pretty forthcoming. I don't know that he's an engineer, but I recall that he simply thought by working with an overseas production company he could provide high quality binoculars that were more affordable than the "alphas". Whether he provided specific design elements or simply a list of features he wanted I don't know. Not that different from the Vortex story, really (a dentist left that profession to run a birding shop and got the idea that he could have good-quality binoculars produced overseas for a lot less than the "top" brands). I think the company supports the local birding community as well.

Thanks for the info--lots there that I didn't know. A very interesting phenomenon, this kind of niche out-sourcing. I wonder what, if anything, it will lead to as far as the larger economy is concerned? We live in a time of flux . . ..
 
As a rickshaw/pedicab owner, I see the same argument about buying/not buying Chinese products erupt seasonally on the rickshawforum. (Some folk even claim that the Chinese-made rickshaws are imitations of the much more expensive US/UK versions.....think about it).

The questions raised about Chinese-made goods are as follows:

1. Are Chinese products innovative or mere cheap imitations?
I don´t know enough about optics to answer this, but I´ve ordered the new ZR 7x36 because it seems innovative to me...I´ve never seen a bino like it. Also, my Chinese-made Nikon ED50 is a little gem. (And my Shanghai-made rickshaw is a beauty). As I said earlier, remove all the Chinese-made products from your home and it will be a far emptier place.

2. Will buying Chinese-made goods lead to job losses in the "West"?
Of course, in the manufacturing sectors, if they can produce quality at lower cost. That´s global capitalism, folks, and we´ve all bought into it. But China is a massive market for "Western" goods too, so it swings both ways.

3. Does buying Chinese products sustain a totalitarian régime?
Tough question, this. Isolating them would certainly sustain them even more. China is now integrated into the world economy and the average Chinese are a lot better off than 30 years ago. In any case, does buying "Western" products sustain misguided "Western" political and economic policies, say in the Middle East, Latin America or Africa? And if buying Chinese products is wrong, surely selling "Western" products to China is also wrong? China holds a massive amount of US bonds, it´s over one-sixth of the world population/market, and it even launches satellites for the European Space programme. An Economic War with China would be silly, even if possible.

Meawhile, I await my ZR 7x36. I don´t know if they´ll be as good as "alphas" I´ve spent lots more money on. I´ll be delighted if they are, and also annoyed (that my "alphas" cost so much). There are at least two perspectives on everything.
 
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