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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Buying Chinese products (binoculars) yes or no (4 Viewers)

well, I don't know if the alphas is really holding the value. When Swaroski lowered their EL price by around $200 early this year, the equity in my EL automatically dropped by that amount. It is the same thing when Leica offers $350 rebate. People who bought Leica before rebate is available automatically overpaid $350 (that is about what you pay for ZEN ED). Just saw a post that is selling his brand new Ultravid for less than half of the original price.
A pair of used, three year old SLC's just sold for $1105.56 (Auction#190324150600) and a set of used EL's just sold for $1395.00 (auction #190323509582) on ebay..... Heck a 20 year old pair of SLC's just sold for $707 (auction#250470345159)... I would be willing to bet these bins were bought at or less than this price new!
Why is it so hard for some to believe that these bins hold their value and buying quality is a good investment???? Its beyond me that people are willing to live in a disposable society!
 
It might be because these bins haven't seen a model replacement yet so as the current price inflates they're resale prices increase too.

The real test is when the neu EL comes out. Which way will prices go? Will people be so shocked at the price tag that old ELs will seem like a bargain. Or will they be yesterdays goods (no ED glass ... how can you bear to look through them ;) )

Ask me how much a pair of Zeiss Victory 8x40 are worth. Top bins right. Previous generation.

Design Selection? Trinovids? Perhaps the best of the group in price but worth more than you paid for them?

Plus ePay is pretty much the highest prices out there: they're not typical selling prices but what someone at the top end of the market wants. What you'll actually get varies a fair bit.

I notice that for example a 7x42 Dyalit on the For Sale here is still for sale after a significant time. No takers. Not a very liquid asset.

I don't disagree with a weaker statement: that the top bins hold their prices longer. But making money on them. Sounds rather like a bubble driven pricing (get in down before the prioces go up!) by rather odd price inflation on new top bins.

Plus there's the opportunity cost of tying your money up in a larger capitol investment.
 
Its beyond me that people are willing to live in a disposable society!

Thats the price of having the latest and greatest with huge economies of scale. I don't mind, as long as its not horrible for the environment. New TV every ~5 years, new computer every ~2 years, new DSLR every ~2 years, etc. I usually make ~60-70% of my money back after selling the things I replace and thats the price I pay to stay current. Its a lifestyle that more and more people are willing to accept, at least the younger ones. I'm sure I might get tired of it when I'm older but you can't ignore the younger demographic.
 
How would you know?
Cause a set of ZR 10x43 ed's less than a year old just sold for $310 on ebay (67% of retail) and another like new set is on there now for $329 "buy it now"..... Come on man! Really! Are you gonna fight this battle! Are you gonna step up and tell me something that is less than a year old and has already depreciated this much is going to have any lasting value 5 to 10 years down the road! You really going to go there! Like all of a sudden this Chinese made bin is going to start to appreciate and be worth more down the road! Wake up! Its a throw-a-way bin that will have ZERO value in 10 years! 0% of retail = zero dollars in worth!
Have fun throwing your money away!

sorry about the rant..... just hate to see people that can't see value and try to argue retail..... I've been here for over twenty years and it just works me up sometimes:smoke:
 
Oh, I mis read your last post. I thought you meant that they are losing value because they don't perform. I didn't realize you meant "perform" with respect to appreciation.

Well, as long as I use them, and they perform optically and mechanically, they will have provided the value I need. I'm not into binos for their resale value. It sounds like you are and thats fine and it makes sense that Zens provide none of that for you and probably why they don't appeal to you.
 
Oh, I mis read your last post. I thought you meant that they are losing value because they don't perform. I didn't realize you meant "perform" with respect to appreciation.

Well, as long as I use them, and they perform optically and mechanically, they will have provided the value I need. I'm not into binos for their resale value. It sounds like you are and thats fine and it makes sense that Zens provide none of that for you and probably why they don't appeal to you.

I completely agree with everyone here that the Zens are a great bin "optically" speaking..... I say this having never looked through a pair, but have read too many posts by all of you that I do respect!
But I do know the optics business and retail... And something I have learned is that the "over priced" European bins do hold their value and give a return when its time to trade up..... Just trying to pass this on and be of some help... If I'm just being disruptive I apologize and will keep quite?
The one thing that I have seen with a lot of Chinese bins is that yes they are quite good optically speaking but,,,,,,, they are not of a overall quality build. They have good glass and "state of the art" coatings and this gives a very good view in return.... But they do not have the finish or detail of a European or Nikon bin. They just don't.... You know even the Swarovski EL had issues with the focus adjustment in it. The EL was prone to having one barrel become stuck in one place because of a broken linkage.... If a company like Swarovski has these issues what do you think can happen with a bin that has much less quality control? Look at all the little details that make up a bin.... That's all I'm saying.... Its the sum of the total and not just the view that makes these Alpha bins command the price they do! And they hold their value... This makes them something (I think) a hobbyist would want? A bin that could be used for many years and then sold for almost as much as the purchase price when wanting a newer bin....
 
Whenever the issue of buying Chinese products comes up and there are other alternatives, I can't help but remember this story:

Chinese fireworks factory

I'm sure it was an isolated incident.

So the lesson to learn is don't buy Chinese fireworks? Its all a big catch 22 really. Chinese children are being forced to do dangerous labor so we shouldn't buy those products which in turn will cause those companies to lose business and in turn cause more unemployment in that community. Perhaps the solution is to solve the problem rather than look away.

Honestly, you're not going to change much by pointing to alternatives based on anecdotes like this one. Its much more efficient to sway consumers with positive advertising rather than negative. If you don't like what the Chinese are doing, then you need to tell your consumers what you're doing better not how they are doing worse.
 
So the lesson to learn is don't buy Chinese fireworks? Its all a big catch 22 really. Chinese children are being forced to do dangerous labor so we shouldn't buy those products which in turn will cause those companies to lose business and in turn cause more unemployment in that community. Perhaps the solution is to solve the problem rather than look away.

Honestly, you're not going to change much by pointing to alternatives based on anecdotes like this one. Its much more efficient to sway consumers with positive advertising rather than negative. If you don't like what the Chinese are doing, then you need to tell your consumers what you're doing better not how they are doing worse.

As long as we're being honest, I honestly think that a high level of unemployment among elementary school-aged children is a good thing. The rest of your post doesn't make a lot of sense to me, either.

I have a problem with buying products from societies where this kind of thing goes on, and where leaded paint on children's toys, deadly additives in food and sulfuric acid in drywall only seem to attract attention when they are noticed by outsiders. Did you know that two thirds of the world's coal mining deaths take place in China? I admit that the level of vigilance required to avoid it entirely is beyond what most consumers can muster, but what kind of person refuses to do what they can?
 
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Whenever the issue of buying Chinese products comes up and there are other alternatives, I can't help but remember this story:

Chinese fireworks factory

I'm sure it was an isolated incident.

Like the one in Netherlands? Enschede fireworks disaster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enschede_fireworks_disaster

See the Europeans can have just as good diasters as the Chinese.

Perhaps they have Alpha disasters too? Oh, wait they do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_Alpha

"world's worst offshore oil disaster in terms both of lives lost and impact to industry"

When you can point to a disaster involving bins then it might be relevant here.
 
I admit that the level of vigilance required to avoid it entirely is beyond what most consumers can muster, but what kind of person refuses to do what they can?

Depends on what exactly you think you're accomplishing by doing that. Will not buying Chinese products stop those abuses? Will not buying Chinese air conditioners have any effect on tainted Chinese milk? Why be so broad?
 
I'm afraid a few birders boycotting Chinese bins - ain't going to do much for winning the Chinese population any democratic rights.

If you really want to do something to help us birders out here - then why not write to the nearest PRC Embassy and ask them why the authorities aren't activly following up on Chinese Wildlife protection laws - why reserves seem under-manned with skilled wardens, why no real action seems to be taken to prevent poaching, why you can find wild-birds for sale in every town - the system here is such that we haven't got any official organ that we can question - but I'm sure a few 1000 Emails from Birders of the world may strir something up!!!!

Ohhhh - and by the way - dont mention my name, I live in China - I could get in trouble for making deviant suggestions ;)
 
Ohhhh - and by the way - dont mention my name, I live in China - I could get in trouble for making deviant suggestions

Now that right there is funny. I don't care who you are. 3:)

...and then again...it isn't.

:(
 
...based on anecdotes like this one.

Are you serious?

You want to hear another "anecdote"? In a documentary about Tibet, a former prisoner was explaining a torture the police use. They handcuff peoples and suspend them for a long period. But they had a problem as the hands were detaching from the body (you read it correctly). They solved this by making a system where they could adjust the level of the prisoner so the big toes where touching the ground...

Funny because the same peoples who say there's nothing we can do, just a few birders won't change anything, etc. are the same peoples who blame everybody for the lack of intervention in 1938...

Why invade Irak? Wasn't it because Saddam was a bad guy? But if it brings us cheap prices, the speech is totally different?!

While we're at it, 9/11 was an anecdote...

Doing nothing is not good and there is many things that can be done. Adressing teh problem is the first step. Then let's find a solution. Otherwise saying there's nothing we can do is saying I don't care.
 
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Are you serious?

You want to hear another "anecdote"? In a documentary about Tibet, a former prisoner was explaining a torture the police use. They handcuff peoples and suspend them for a long period. But they had a problem as the hands were detaching from the body (you read it correctly). They solved this by making a system where they could adjust the level of the prisoner so the big toes where touching the ground...

Funny because the same peoples who say there's nothing we can do, just a few birders won't change anything, etc. are the same peoples who blame everybody for the lack of intervention in 1938...

Why invade Irak? Wasn't it because Saddam was a bad guy? But if it brings us cheap prices, the speech is totally different?!

While we're at it, 9/11 was an anecdote...

Doing nothing is not good and there is many things that can be done. Adressing teh problem is the first step. Then let's find a solution. Otherwise saying there's nothing we can do is saying I don't care.

How did we get from Chinese binoculars to 9/11? I think it would be safe to say nobody here is supporting any of the atrocities you've mentioned. The difference in opinion here is that should "societies" be viewed as a whole.

Should I feel any guilt for buying American made goods because of the atrocities America has committed present and past? Japanese/German goods for what they did during WWII? Israeli goods(Intel does a fair bit of R&D there BTW, the same Intel hardware that is running the computer I'm typing on)?

If I knew a certain company was committing horrible acts on its employees or had direct ties to other atrocities, I would certainly stop buying from them but to lump a whole people together just doesn't make any sense both morally and economically.
 
.... the pricing of Chin Bins and German/Austrian bins would have to be similar. But I agree, that really is another thread.
"Chin bins". Now there's a phrase that deserves to be more widely used.

there are only two roads we as optic enthusiast can follow.... One is the pursuit of optical excellence and the other is the pursuit of lower cost bins...
This is a maxim much spoken (without the optics/bins reference) by retailers. I'm not sure it is always true of retailers, let alone binocular manufacturers. I myself don't want 100% of the excellence at 100% of the price (though I'm happy for those that do to indulge themselves). Nor do I want 10% of the excellence at 10% of the price. Me, I want 95% of the excellence at 25% of the price. From the number of people buying Zen-Ray ED2s etc, it would seem I am not alone.

So, should we support the totalitarian state of China by giving it our hard earned cash when we buy or new binoculars.
Pros:
It´s very very cheap.
Cons:
We support a totalitarian communist state. Perhaps we take away a job here and give it to someone in China. Good or bad?
You are asking a very loaded question. You pre-suppose that buying products from a communist country helps to support the continuation of communism. Okay, that seems intuitive enough. But is it true? Consider Cuba. Do you really imagine Castro would have been able to stay in power all this time without the misguided trade embargo of Cuba's Big Bad Neighbour?

History shows us that when people are impoverished, they generally turn to radical politics. Prime example: 1920s/early 30s Germany. I suggest to you that the best thing you can do to help dismantle communism is to buy from its people. Allow people a little money of their own, and they soon get the taste for it. I rode my motorcycle through Albania a year ago. Albania is a former communist state whose people had been repressed for 40 years by a dictator, Enver Hoxha. They are still clearly very poor by our standards - I lost count of the number of donkey carts and goat herders - but I have never seen so much determination to move up in life. Every other 17-year-old had saved up for a power-washer and was self-employed cleaning cars. Many thirty-somethings had spent the last ten years working hard abroad and had now come back to Albania and were building or running their own hotel or shop or workshop.

Allow people a taste of the freedom to earn their own money, and they will want more. And will be willing to work hard for it. This is how America got wealthy - through Free Trade and enterprise. Free Trade does not destroy jobs, it creates them. Okay, it sometimes moves them round a bit too, but that's a free economy for you.

Do not make the British and European mistake of thinking the state sometimes knows best. It doesn't. The state never knows best. We should buy Chinese products with the confident knowledge that, not only are we getting a bargain, but we are helping the world's biggest population to move towards the wealth and freedom we ourselves largely take for granted.
 
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