Marsh Reed? (1 Viewer)

alsirhan · Nov 5, 2005

hannu said:
The long-billed look is not any (sure) feature to id ssp opaca, but I think that your WOW candidates does not look so long-billed as the birds in my mentioned link.

Also we have not reliable and published opaca observations from the east side of Sweden-France line. So Your assumption of opaca in Kuwait seems to be quite difficult to accept in this aspect.

Your quote "the race in Kuwait is either pallida or elaeica." means that the writers of that book did not know surely the range of opaca and elaeica. I think that we know now more than at that time. So in this point of view your met birds are elaeica and languida.

There is misunderstanding here, I never said that opaca occur in Kuwait. I said two things:
1- The race in Kuwait is either pallida or elaeica which are both EOW, even in Isarel Sirihai (B. of Israel 1996) states that only elaeica occur in Israel together with suspected race tamariceti and doesn't accept opaca as occuring in Israel.
2- The link you provided in post #37 "http://www.fugler.no/bilder/spesial/20040912.htm" as EOW is not EOW but WEO (opaca) due to the length of bill, but now as you said bill length is overlapping very much and this is not a reliable feasture.

Alsirhan.

alsirhan · Nov 5, 2005

hannu said:
I don't know, does it possible to cancel your belief. You have to prove that bird is opaca ! ;-)

Off course Hannu I will change my mind if I am wrong. Just now I found where the misunderstanding come from! it is in post 72 I made two sentences the first one about opaca refers to to your link from norway not to my new pictures and the second sentence refers to my new picture below. I think this will clearify things.

Alsirhan.

Here is post #37 below:
Originally Posted by hannuMore Olly pics (9pics) from Norway, (same bird mentioned in post 37)

http://home.online.no/~kjetaso/bleksanger.html

Hannu ....I think these pics are for the Western Olivaceous Warbler H. opaca . . . longer bill as opposed to shorter bill of Eastern OW. H. pallida.
Here are some photos taken in Kuwait August Sept. 2005 for birds I identify as Eastern OW. H. pallida. (#9, #10 & #13) they have short and thin bill.

hannu · Nov 5, 2005

alsirhan said:
There is misunderstanding here, I never said that opaca occur in Kuwait. I said two things:
1- The race in Kuwait is either pallida or elaeica which are both EOW, even in Isarel Sirihai (B. of Israel 1996) states that only elaeica occur in Israel together with suspected race tamariceti and doesn't accept opaca as occuring in Israel.
2- The link you provided in post #37 "http://www.fugler.no/bilder/spesial/20040912.htm" as EOW is not EOW but WEO (opaca) due to the length of bill, but now as you said bill length is overlapping very much and this is not a reliable feasture.

Alsirhan.

You wrote in post 72 as follows:
" Hannu ....I think these pics are for the Western Olivaceous Warbler H. opaca . . . longer bill as opposed to shorter bill of Eastern OW. H. pallida..."

When I thought that you supposed that your bird in your pics (9,10,13) is opaca, so I deduced then that in your mind, opaca should occur also in Kuwait !

1 > You are right about this; I read it too careless.
2 > I think that Norwegian bird is really EOW, in addition to e.g. the shape of bill from top view as Jan mentioned in post 77 (concave sides >< conwex).

hannu · Nov 5, 2005

alsirhan said:
the first one about opaca refers to to your link from norway not to my new pictures and the second sentence refers to my new picture below. QUOTE]

Ok, I understood your saying wrong ! ;-) Now I understand your reference right, but I answered your notice earlier posts as you said in post 81 (that overlapping thing).

hannu · Nov 5, 2005

alsirhan said:
It appears from literature (BWP) that the race in Kuwait is either pallida or elaeica.
Alsirhan

I think that these two subspecies (pallida and elaeica

) is very similar and it's not possible to differ in the field without capture. Maybe even then it's not possible. Only sure way to id these two close subspecies is probably to catch birds in the breeding areas. I think that if we identify birds in EOW - WOW level, it's sufficient exactness.

SORRY fellows, if this conversation is so involved, mainly because english is NOT my mother tongue !

Ghostly Vision · Nov 5, 2005

....Oh, reading back on my topographical descriptions, I should mention that sometimes a dark loral line (i.e. between bill and eye) is called an eyestripe!

Personally, I think this is potentially confusing unless it is clarified as an eyestripe in front of, or behind, the eye.

Great thread. Should be made into a full-blown article for all the serious birding magazines so that it is more easily accessible, and can be taken in the field!

GV

hannu · Nov 5, 2005

Ghostly Vision said:
Great thread. Should be made into a full-blown article for all the serious birding magazines so that it is more easily accessible, and can be taken in the field!
GV

GV, I suppose that all these things are written in some books or magazines (e.g. Jan mentioned Birding World in post 77)!
But I think it should be also made such id articles, where writer compare two species (genus?) in general level for example Acrocephalus > < Hippolais. Also I think that these id articles should not to concentrate only for example differences of Hippolais -species, because also Blyth's Reed W reminds a lot to EOW.

JANJ · Nov 5, 2005

There are only two accepted records of opaca (which now is regarded as a species of it´s own, se Svensson, Birding World, 2001, and Parking, Collinson, Helbeig, Knox, Sangster, Svensson, 2004. Species limits in Acrocephalus and Hippolais Warblers from the Western Palearctic. British Birds, 97:276-299) north of it´s breeding range, one from Le Grau-du-Roi, Gard, southern France in May 1960, and one from Sweden 25 September 1993.
Measurement for the Swedish bird as follows:

Bill, 19,5 mm (skull) long-billed individual. (Svensson 1992 gives 16,6-18,5)
width of bill 5,0 mm (Svensson 1992 gives 3,9-5,0)

elaeica (Svensson 1992)

width of bill 3,1-3,9,
and as mentioned, bill sides in elaeica, seen from above, concave (as in the Norwegian bird) conwex in opaca.

Also differences as noted by Hannu in #80.
JanJ

hannu · Nov 5, 2005

Ghostly Vision said:
....Oh, reading back on my topographical descriptions, I should mention that sometimes a dark loral line (i.e. between bill and eye) is called an eyestripe!
Personally, I think this is potentially confusing unless it is clarified as an eyestripe in front of, or behind, the eye.
GV

This message refers also to post 62-63,...

Byers, Olsson & Curson, Buntings & Sparrows:
“lores” – area between bill and eye
“eye-stripe” = “postocular stripe” – dark stripe behind the eye
“supercilium” – runs above the lores and continues back over the eye stripe. “supraloral” – that part of supercilium, which is above the lores

Sibley: The North American Bird Guide:
”Supercilium or eyebrow” – runs above the lores and continues back over the eye stripe.
”eye-line or eyestripe” – dark stripe behind the eye
“lores” – area between bill and eye
“supraloral” – that part of supercilium, which is above the lores

So there is none same meaning English word to Finnish 'eye-stripe', which start the base of bill and continues 'through' the eye and running behind eye along top of ear coverts.

hannu · Nov 5, 2005

alsirhan said:
To compare with Upcher's Warbler I include the following:
#12 is another one similar to #11 but with bills open.
Alsirhan.

Alsirhan,
I measured the lenght of bill from both birds in your pic 12.The result was that elaeica-bird has 13,2 % shorter bill than the bill of languida. If we suppose that elaeica's bill in that pic is average bill, 15,9 mm, then languida bill is appr. 18.3 mm. So this kind of difference is between these birds in that pic.

Species Bill length (S)
H. p. elaeica 14,1-17,5 (15,9)
H. languida 16,0 - 21,8

alsirhan · Nov 5, 2005

hannu said:
Alsirhan,
I measured the lenght of bill from both birds in your pic 12.The result was that elaeica-bird has 13,2 % shorter bill than the bill of languida. If we suppose that elaeica's bill in that pic is average bill, 15,9 mm, then languida bill is appr. 18.3 mm. So this kind of difference is between these birds in that pic.

Species Bill length (S)
H. p. elaeica 14,1-17,5 (15,9)
H. languida 16,0 - 21,8

Hannu this is a very good work to compare bill lengths.
So you agree with me that the bird in the background in pic #11 and #12 is UW and that in the foreground is EOW.
This means that pic #14 is also UW (this bird was particullarly moving its tail in circules and fanning its tail while being photographed, it also had broader tail as you may notice, I also noticed that it had longer tibia and may be longer tarsus!)
You may also agree that pic #9, #10 and #13 are EOW (in post #72) note that in pic #10 and may be #13, the tail is darker greyish-black contrasting with upperparts (we conclude that darker greyish-black tail contrasting with upperparts is not a feature of UW only as implyed in some literature). Pic #9 shows the distance between tips of tertials not being the same (probably due to wear) so this feature is not valid on birds of worn tertials.

Having said all of the above, can't I safely say that the pic in post #11 is also EOW?

Remember that your reply to post #11 was:

This seems to be individual, which have not the feature (same distance between tips of tertials) mentioned by Svensson. That feature is one, which OW can differ from Upcher's W (Shirihai 1987), but also Svensson mention, that possibility to meet aberrant individual. So now we can discuss about this Hippo, does it Olivaceous or Upcher's ?

and I replyed as "we'll leave the discusstion of Olivaceous/Upcher's Warbler to a different post hopefully!" but now to complete our discussion I had to to include it here.

Alsirhan.

hannu · Nov 6, 2005

alsirhan said:
Hannu this is a very good work to compare bill lengths.
So you agree with me that the bird in the background in pic #11 and #12 is UW and that in the foreground is EOW.
This means that pic #14 is also UW (this bird was particullarly moving its tail in circules and fanning its tail while being photographed, it also had broader tail as you may notice, I also noticed that it had longer tibia and may be longer tarsus!)
You may also agree that pic #9, #10 and #13 are EOW (in post #72) note that in pic #10 and may be #13, the tail is darker greyish-black contrasting with upperparts (we conclude that darker greyish-black tail contrasting with upperparts is not a feature of UW only as implyed in some literature). Pic #9 shows the distance between tips of tertials not being the same (probably due to wear) so this feature is not valid on birds of worn tertials.

Having said all of the above, can't I safely say that the pic in post #11 is also EOW?

Remember that your reply to post #11 was:

This seems to be individual, which have not the feature (same distance between tips of tertials) mentioned by Svensson. That feature is one, which OW can differ from Upcher's W (Shirihai 1987), but also Svensson mention, that possibility to meet aberrant individual. So now we can discuss about this Hippo, does it Olivaceous or Upcher's ?

and I replyed as "we'll leave the discusstion of Olivaceous/Upcher's Warbler to a different post hopefully!" but now to complete our discussion I had to to include it here.

Alsirhan.

Maybe we should look over all your other attached Hippo-photos and check the id of bird one by one in order . Then you will get clear view of these different cases.
Because your first bird was Hippo and the bird was obviously elaeica (colour, lenght of bill, the lenght and shape of supercilium etc), it's logical to look over all your attached Hippo cases in this thread, even you wished that we will leave it to a different post. So I agree with you in this. But I have a little bit busy, but I'll be back quite soon.

hannu · Nov 7, 2005

Alsirhan,
Do you have any photos from Icterina warbler ?
I ask this because I can compare the colour of the birds in your photos and it will be better probably to estimate what are the colours of bird's plumage in reality !
Thanx a lot in advance !

alsirhan · Nov 7, 2005

hannu said:
Alsirhan,
Do you have any photos from Icterina warbler ?
I ask this because I can compare the colour of the birds in your photos and it will be better probably to estimate what are the colours of bird's plumage in reality !
Thanx a lot in advance !

I afraid not! But I have what I identified as Sykes's Warbler due to short PP and finer bill, may this do any help?

Alsirhan.

hannu · Nov 7, 2005

alsirhan said:
I afraid not! But I have what I identified as Sykes's Warbler due to short PP and finer bill, may this do any help?

Alsirhan.

No, it does not help because rama and galigata are near one another in general look, but these 'bigger' Hippolais are more difficult to differ from one another without colour features.
Because I can not be sure about the colour of bird's plumage in your photos, I must study id of these species with the help of our own Finnish identification pocket guidebook, where is listed all details (also others than colour features) which are important to check between two (or more) closed species. There are over 200 species, mainly rare species or subspecies.

hannu · Apr 1, 2006

Hi Alsirhan and others too!
Now I return to the matter, because I have study about the identification of the confusion species.

Our discussion about the birds in post # 73 was interrupted.
So the question was, in which way we can differ EOW from the Upcher's:

(follow details based on Lars Svensson’s article in Birding World Vol 14 no 5)

The largest EOW individuals could be confused with Upcher's Warbler, which is not always as pure grey above as the books imply.
Upcher's has (1) a longer primary-projection, and its (2) darker grey primaries have contrasting pale tips (rather like on a fresh Marsh Warbler) if not too worn.
Upcher's also has (3) a stronger and more concentrated whitish secondary panel (but some are less marked and more similar to EOW).
It also has (4) a larger head and (5) sometimes (but not always) a stronger bill, and (6) the upper tail is considerably darker grey than on the average EOW.
On Upcher's, (7) the tips of the outer tail-feathers have more clean white, which can sometimes be judged when a bird takes off or alights.
Also, Upcher's has (8) broader tail-feathers - which explains why the whole tail often looks broader than on EOW.
Upcher's also has (9) a habit of semi-fanning its tail and waving it around as if it is poorly fixed, a habit not seen in EOW.

> So if we compare those two individuals in two first pics (post 73), main part of the discriminating features are clearly seen from those birds.

alsirhan · May 6, 2006

Hi Hannu

Thank you Hannu for filling the missing information in the current post.
It has been a long since I have been to this forum so sorry for the delay.

Alsirhan

hannu · Oct 20, 2006

Some Hippolais photos from Spain :
http://www.fotodigiscoping.info/galeria/searchguia.php?search_keywords=Hippolais AND icterina

I found this kind of breeding pair estimation of opaca:
The western olivaceous warbler is present in south-east Spain, where it breeds, from April to September before heading south to winter in sub-Saharan Africa. Perhaps 5,000 pairs (Juana and Varela, 2006)
So Spanish fellows, does opaca easy to see in their breeding areas?

hannu · Aug 10, 2007

Hi Alsirhan,

I decided to check all my opinions concerning to the identification of these Acro-Hippo species, where I have been concerned as one of many active contributors in this forum. There are many reasons why I want to do this:
Firstly, I was lacking an exact information about the identification of these species earlier in many ways. I have got much more to know about the identification of these species since when I wrote those opinions. However, I have to admit that I have still many open questions about the id of these species, especially in the segment of Southern and Eastern species.
Secondly, I have probably caused various confusions at least partly through my opinions.
Thirdly, I want to correct my possible mistakes. I'm sorry if that has caused any harm to you!

I have still difficulties to estimate sometimes these strong light photos, which has formed often as a trap to me. So here is my answers to your questions today.

post # 1
pic 1-3: Marsh Warbler (e.g. longest tertial is longer than secondaries, pale (yellowish) legs, visible primary tips, clearly darker primaries ~ almost blackish etc)

post # 6
pic 4: Marsh Warbler

post # 11
pic 5: Eastern Olivaceous Warbler

post # 38
pic 6: Marsh Warbler

post # 38
pic 7-9 (6-8): Marsh Warbler

post # 72
pic 10-12 (9,10,13): Eastern Olivaceous Warbler

If you have any questions concerning my opinions, don't hesitate to take contact to me!

All the best, Hannu

alsirhan · Aug 12, 2007

Hi Hannu,

I am very glad you decided to review all your ID's. I wanted to do the same to this post two months ago but thought it would better if I wait.
I think reviewing past ID's and scientifically based discussion would benefit us all in this bird forum, also increases our learning and enhancing our knowledge of birds.
I agree with here and want to add this:

The birds in post 73:
pic #11 Upcher's Warbler in background, Eurasian Reed Warbler in foreground.

pic #12 Upcher's Warbler in background, Eurasian Reed Warbler in foreground.

pic #14 Upcher's Warbler.

The Reed Warbler has strong, curved and long hind claws this is seen in the above pic #11 and #12.

Reed Warblers perch on thick reed stems so they need strong and long hind claws, whereas Olivaceous Warblers perch on thin tree stems so thier hind claw small and not long. The photographs of Olivaceous and Reed Warblers are attached below to show the diffreneces in hind claws between the two species.

Thank you very much Hannu for updating your identifications, and I hope I will learn more from you in the future.

All the best to you and the others on this bird forum.

All the best,

Alsirhan.

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