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A Word on Coatings (1 Viewer)

WJC

Well-known member
Although I have been back on BF a relatively short time, I’ve come to see that being thorough in my comments, or having considerable practical experience in a subject, is not enough to keep me from having my assertions questioned, denied, altered, or unnecessarily extrapolated upon. Still, while I don’t intend to get into a peeing match about it, I would like to comment on coatings, since it seems to be a topic of never ending interest and conversation.

Few features in binocular ads are touted more than the effectiveness of the company’s proprietary lens coatings. Anti-reflective or AR coatings were developed by Zeiss in Germany, and Bausch and Lomb in the United States in the mid-1930s, and kept secret from the outside world throughout the Second World War.

Created to make images brighter and more contrasty, it’s been said that at the beginning of the WWII, only about 50% of the light striking an objective lens made to through the instrument. The rest was absorbed into the glass, or reflected outside the primary light cone by the optics or internal surfaces.

Some companies try to illustrate the benefits of their proprietary coatings by showing a photograph, half of which is sharp and contrasty, with the other half looking as if it were shot through a piece of frosted glass. This isn’t a fair comparison, as some photographs show a greater difference in clarity than one would find when comparing an uncoated lens system to the finest fully multi-coated example.

The bottom line? Switching from a binocular with magnesium fluoride coatings—which have been the industry standard for more than 80 years—to one with today’s multi-coatings on the same optical surfaces, an observer may experience an increase in light transmission of around 12%-14%. When comparing the multi-coatings of two leading manufacturers, however, you’re splitting hairs with an axe. The difference is below the perception threshold of even the most seasoned observer, and should certainly not be used exclusively when making a buying decision.

Those observers who note a difference are usually seeing differences in:

— Figuring
— Polishing
— Baffling
— Blackening lens and/or prism edges
— Prism shields
— Prism type
— Prism slotting
— Field stop positioning
— Field stop knife-edge
— Reflections from the rear eyelens
— Positioning of the eye relative to the exit pupil
— Psychology of performance
— Others

Finally:

Some observers profess to tell the effectiveness of AR coatings by the color of the fluoride deposited onto the lens. This is not a valid gauge. In the late 1950s and early ‘60s, binoculars with deep blue tints were popular, and many people supposed they were seeing better because of them. However, in conversations with the late Humphrey Swift, of Swift Instruments, I learned many of those beautiful coatings were a by-product of magnesium fluoride being deposited at a temperature short of ideal for the task, as a production shortcut.

Those coatings didn’t adhere well to the glass, and came off with the acetone used by professional opticians during repairs and adjustments. This gave rise to the persistent notion that “acetone will take off lens coatings!” This assessment—usually made by armchair opticians—is simply not true. Poorly applied, those coatings were removed during cleaning by inordinately light abrasion.

Some people have also speculated that the purpose of lens coatings is to “protect” the glass. This belief is, at best, based on poorly interpreted information. It’s true that magnesium fluoride is harder than the glass beneath—575 on the Knoop hardness scale vs. 520 for Bk7 glass. At a thickness of four millionths of an inch, however, it offers little by way of protection. This is something to consider the next time you start cleaning the optics of your best binocular with a dirty shirttail.
 
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o:)
Although I have been back on BF a relatively short time, I’ve come to see that being thorough in my comments, or having considerable practical experience in a subject, is not enough to keep me from having my assertions questioned, denied, altered, or unnecessarily extrapolated upon. Still, while I don’t intend to get into a peeing match about it, I would like to comment on coatings, since it seems to be a topic of never ending interest and conversation.

Few features in binocular ads are touted more than the effectiveness of the company’s proprietary lens coatings. Anti-reflective or AR coatings were developed by Zeiss in Germany, and Bausch and Lomb in the United States in the mid-1930s, and kept secret from the outside world throughout the Second World War.

Created to make images brighter and more contrasty, it’s been said that at the beginning of the WWII, only about 50% of the light striking an objective lens made to through the instrument. The rest was absorbed into the glass, or reflected outside the primary light cone by the optics or internal surfaces.

Some companies try to illustrate the benefits of their proprietary coatings by showing a photograph, half of which is sharp and contrasty, with the other half looking as if it were shot through a piece of frosted glass. This isn’t a fair comparison, as some photographs show a greater difference in clarity than one would find when comparing an uncoated lens system to the finest fully multi-coated example.

The bottom line? Switching from a binocular with magnesium fluoride coatings—which have been the industry standard for more than 80 years—to one with today’s multi-coatings on the same optical surfaces, an observer may experience an increase in light transmission of around 12%-14%. When comparing the multi-coatings of two leading manufacturers, however, you’re splitting hairs with an axe. The difference is below the perception threshold of even the most seasoned observer, and should certainly not be used exclusively when making a buying decision.

Those observers who note a difference are usually seeing differences in:

— Figuring
— Polishing
— Baffling
— Blackening lens and/or prism edges
— Prism shields
— Prism type
— Prism slotting
— Field stop positioning
— Field stop knife-edge
— Reflections from the rear eyelens
— Positioning of the eye relative to the exit pupil
— Psychology of performance
— Others

Finally:

Some observers profess to tell the effectiveness of AR coatings by the color of the fluoride deposited onto the lens. This is not a valid gauge. In the late 1950s and early ‘60s, binoculars with deep blue tints were popular, and many people supposed they were seeing better because of them. However, in conversations with the late Humphrey Swift, of Swift Instruments, I learned many of those beautiful coatings were a by-product of magnesium fluoride being deposited at a temperature short of ideal for the task, as a production shortcut.

Those coatings didn’t adhere well to the glass, and came off with the acetone used by professional opticians during repairs and adjustments. This gave rise to the persistent notion that “acetone will take off lens coatings!” This assessment—usually made by armchair opticians—is simply not true. Poorly applied, those coatings were removed during cleaning by inordinately light abrasion.

Some people have also speculated that the purpose of lens coatings is to “protect” the glass. This belief is, at best, based on poorly interpreted information. It’s true that magnesium fluoride is harder than the glass beneath—575 on the Knoop hardness scale vs. 520 for Bk7 glass. At a thickness of four millionths of an inch, however, it offers little by way of protection. This is something to consider the next time you start cleaning the optics of your best binocular with a dirty shirttail.

Good post,

Keep in mind this is the internet, there are probably three quarters of a million people who profess to know everything there is to know about anything there is to learn. And most conflict with other internet experts. If readers take it all at face value then what you end up with is nothing of any use. So how to determine if one is really who they say they are? (I have a friend who has 5 oil wells and a home in Lake City Colorado on the singles meet up internet forums, he's a jet engine mechanic in a trailerhouse in real life) Questions are the only way I know to get the wheat from the chaff. Those who cant or wont answer the questions leave me to speculate thay dont have the answer. So to expect to not be questioned by people trying to understand means it may be a rocky relationship on the net. Setting yourself up as an expert at anything, is putting a target on your back.
 
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Thanks Bill. I'll vouch for Bill, by the way, though long association in another forum. Opticalman in the Navy, editor of Amateur Telescope Making Journal, career optical repairman and retailer. I assure you he knows it's more complicated than what he has said, and that certain points can be elaborated and debated at length, but has decided to make things useful for a relative beginner at this.

But, if one elects to not "keep his light under a bushel", he should not keep his credentials under one either. A reader naturally wants to know HOW a person came to know what he purports to, before trusting the information. Of course one could still lie, huh. So tell the truth already!

Ron
 
Samandag Wrote: “. . .Keep in mind this is the internet, there are probably three quarters of a million people who profess to know everything there is to know about anything there is to learn. And most conflict with other internet experts. If readers take it all at face value then what you end up with is nothing of any use. So how to determine if one is really who they say they are? (I have a friend who has 5 oil wells and a home in Lake City Colorado on the singles meet up internet forums, he's a jet engine mechanic in a trailerhouse in real life) Questions are the only way I know to get the wheat from the chaff. Those who cant or wont answer the questions leave me to speculate thay dont have the answer. So to expect to not be questioned by people trying to understand means it may be a rocky relationship on the net. Setting yourself up as an expert at anything, is putting a target on your back.”

Yes, I understand all that, and when on these forums, that will always be the case. That's why I RARELY have to call myself an “expert,” then only when cornered, and stay on the watch for those who want to make their neighbors think they are. Those folks often say things that, while designed to pump themselves up, might take the trusting soul down roads they might not want to go. You say such are just putting targets on their backs. That’s certainly true, especially when one of the quickest ways to achieve the adoration they seek is to follow each experienced optician to “elaborate” on what’s been thoroughly addressed, already, or to find reason to constantly question his answers. That way, he who thrives on being in the limelight can see to it he is.

Yes, I could extrapolate further on many topics. But some topics that the amateur observer needs to have explained are usually written in highbrow eggheadese. There are two kinds of light—glows that illuminate and glares that obscure. The highbrow stuff often obscures valuable information. Some of my friends think I’m nuts for coming to these forums. But, I think each person who draws a breath should try to leave the world better than he found it. And, I have just a few ways to do that.

Do I make mistakes? Abso-darn-lutely! [I remember, there was that time back in ’58, when . . . ] It’s just that most self-appointed binocular “experts” are not equipped to call me on them. Take, for example, Optics_Nut’s last post. After reading the very first post, in a thread I started, [I thought we agreed to stay out of each other’s threads], he says: “not bad on actual technical content,” “I don’t really question it, in context,” and “There are a number of coating types left out, but it's OK as far as it goes.”

Frankly, I’ve never felt I needed to run my thoughts passed him, to get approval. Perhaps I’ve been wrong.

Thanks, Ron. Your thoughts were kind and succinct. I was through with the boilerplate above when I saw your text, and want to post it, anyway. I may have to leave BirdForum for good, though. I think everyone should be leery, of everything, these days. But, while I do love to help my neighbor past the prevailing bull, I don’t have time to answer questions that were only designed to shine lights where they needn’t be shown.

I guess I should post all my credentials. But, that would take 3 pages and the weight would crush hyper wannabees like a bug. That would be ME being self-serving. I would like to be better than that. But, if I have to go to keep peace, I will.

Have a great day,

Your friendly little screw turner,

Bill
 
Bill,

Don't know you, but love your writings. Keep up this good work.

By the way: Samandag is not Perterra!!! Perterra is only quoting Samandag, but you are not the first one who is confused by this.

Jan
 
Although I have been back on BF a relatively short time, I’ve come to see that being thorough in my comments, or having considerable practical experience in a subject, is not enough to keep me from having my assertions questioned, denied, altered, or unnecessarily extrapolated upon. Still, while I don’t intend to get into a peeing match about it, I would like to comment on coatings, since it seems to be a topic of never ending interest and conversation.

Few features in binocular ads are touted more than the effectiveness of the company’s proprietary lens coatings. Anti-reflective or AR coatings were developed by Zeiss in Germany, and Bausch and Lomb in the United States in the mid-1930s, and kept secret from the outside world throughout the Second World War.

Created to make images brighter and more contrasty, it’s been said that at the beginning of the WWII, only about 50% of the light striking an objective lens made to through the instrument. The rest was absorbed into the glass, or reflected outside the primary light cone by the optics or internal surfaces.

Some companies try to illustrate the benefits of their proprietary coatings by showing a photograph, half of which is sharp and contrasty, with the other half looking as if it were shot through a piece of frosted glass. This isn’t a fair comparison, as some photographs show a greater difference in clarity than one would find when comparing an uncoated lens system to the finest fully multi-coated example.

The bottom line? Switching from a binocular with magnesium fluoride coatings—which have been the industry standard for more than 80 years—to one with today’s multi-coatings on the same optical surfaces, an observer may experience an increase in light transmission of around 12%-14%. When comparing the multi-coatings of two leading manufacturers, however, you’re splitting hairs with an axe. The difference is below the perception threshold of even the most seasoned observer, and should certainly not be used exclusively when making a buying decision.

Those observers who note a difference are usually seeing differences in:

— Figuring
— Polishing
— Baffling
— Blackening lens and/or prism edges
— Prism shields
— Prism type
— Prism slotting
— Field stop positioning
— Field stop knife-edge
— Reflections from the rear eyelens
— Positioning of the eye relative to the exit pupil
— Psychology of performance
— Others

Finally:

Some observers profess to tell the effectiveness of AR coatings by the color of the fluoride deposited onto the lens. This is not a valid gauge. In the late 1950s and early ‘60s, binoculars with deep blue tints were popular, and many people supposed they were seeing better because of them. However, in conversations with the late Humphrey Swift, of Swift Instruments, I learned many of those beautiful coatings were a by-product of magnesium fluoride being deposited at a temperature short of ideal for the task, as a production shortcut.

Those coatings didn’t adhere well to the glass, and came off with the acetone used by professional opticians during repairs and adjustments. This gave rise to the persistent notion that “acetone will take off lens coatings!” This assessment—usually made by armchair opticians—is simply not true. Poorly applied, those coatings were removed during cleaning by inordinately light abrasion.

Some people have also speculated that the purpose of lens coatings is to “protect” the glass. This belief is, at best, based on poorly interpreted information. It’s true that magnesium fluoride is harder than the glass beneath—575 on the Knoop hardness scale vs. 520 for Bk7 glass. At a thickness of four millionths of an inch, however, it offers little by way of protection. This is something to consider the next time you start cleaning the optics of your best binocular with a dirty shirttail.

Bill,

Well, BF doesn't have a bow smilie to make a proper tribute to your "considerable practical experience," so I hope these flowers will do. :flowers:

This reminds me of Leif, who used to get upset when someone attributed some knowledge or discovery to another expert and didn't pay him proper tribute. Once your book comes out you will be world renown and won't have to grovel for respect like Rodney Dangerfield. ;)

Anyway, as to coatings, I have found that AR coatings are the most important advance that has been made to binoculars in the past two decades. Not just the increased transmission, but the way that various manufactures have tweaked the color balance of their coatings to achieve certain benefits. For example, Zeiss's coatings peaking in the middle of the spectrum to emphasize brightness and Nikon bumping up the red side to make the view "warmer."

Swarovski, which used to have a yellow bias to their AR coatings, made for European hunters to cut through the "din" of winter, has moved to more neutral coatings with "flatter" light transmission in the EL and SV EL. Even within the same brand and premium price point, the SV EL and SLC-HD differ in their color emphasis.

By looking at the 8x32 SE, which I have owned three models - 501xxx (1998 or 1999), 505xxx (2006 or 2007) and 550xxx (2011 or 2012) - it's easy for me to see how Nikon has advanced its MCs.

Each successive model shows better contrast and more vivid colors. Looking at your list of "other causes," I see none that apply since AFAIK, the design of the SE has stayed the same. The only change was the use of "Eco-Glass" in the latest model (550, Nikon also made a 551 before they discontinued the SE series).

Overall, the color balance is similar if not the same, so the better contrast and more vivid colors come from increased transmission and perhaps more advanced "proprietary" coatings materials.

While I would not want to get into a peeing match with you without first taking Tamsulosin ;), I have to say that there is a noticeable difference in coatings among brands, even when the overall transmission percentage is the same or similar, due to the differences in color balances.

You can see this in the light transmission graphs of the FL vs. the SV EL vs. the SLC-HD vs. the EDG vs. the SE. Some differences are subtle, some significant.

I haven't tried the FL, but I have used the pre-SV EL, SLC-HD, EDG and SE, and I can see differences in the image.

Carl_Zeiss_Victory_8x32_T*_FL

Swarovski_EL_8.5x42_Swarovision

Swarovski_SLC_10x42_WB_HD

http://Nikon_8x42_EDGl

Nikon_SE_8x32_CF

Brock
 
Hey Brock:

Flowers? Bull! Let’s get down to some serious groveling! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Okay, that’s enough.

Of course, what you say is true. But, keep in mind, you were speaking of spectral analysis and I was talking simple layman’s throughput. Have I noticed it? Yes. Am I qualified to speak to it? No. As I say of Peter’s group: “You guys are WAY too geeky for me.” I do know that I have stated I could be a wealthy man, today, if I could be persuaded to bend the truth. I may stack my mistakes like cordwood, but I’m not twisting what I believe to be true. One major company—that must remain nameless—offered to put me on the payroll if I would indorse their AR coatings over their competition. I’m sure you know how far that conversation went. That’s okay, they fed me well.

I never noticed that about Leif. But, I did notice how our conversations on astronomy or telescope making came to a screeching halt if a pretty bird passed by; that happened with the winged ones, too.

Ah, the book. I’ve had to stop and get back to magazine querying. I’ve grown so fond of eating and paying bills, ya know.

So far, I’ve talked with 4 publishing houses; they all want me to make it into something it was never conceived to be. I respect their need to publish the kind off material they know about. However, it does lend itself to that. In addressing MYTHS, I have one “chapter” that’s 18 pages long, and another that’s HALF a page. One publisher wants, “At least 10 chapters of at least 10 pages each.” I would like my little Chevy pickup to be Grand Cherokee. Oddly, it hasn’t started changing.

If I had a retirement, I would just self-publish. As a writer, I know the stigma that comes with that. However, if I sold one to everyone who could benefit, I still wouldn’t make any money. I just want to help my neighbor avoid some pitfalls, not produce the literary masterpiece most are wanting. I’ve already rewritten it 3 times, to try to make various people happy. Now, I’m going to make ME happy. But first, I have to get some article work coming in.

Cheers,

Bill :hi:

PS I’m wanting a new Casino really badly. I can remember when I went through guitars like water. My new financial situation has changed all that.
 
Bill, I hope that you get your book published one day as I would really like a copy. Sounds like great in depth reading material that I would enjoy. Jim
 
Bill,

Don't know you, but love your writings. Keep up this good work.

By the way: Samandag is not Perterra!!! Perterra is only quoting Samandag, but you are not the first one who is confused by this.

Jan

I'll remove his quote, who knew it would result in such angst

I guess now people will think I am Bill Nye
 
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I'll remove his quote, who knew it would result in such angst

I guess now people will think I am Bill Nye

Bill was a good customer, usually for weather instruments. We cut a few inches off a Celestron First Scope 80 so we could fit a Stereo Viewer onto it.

Ah, to watch Cory with a hacksaw. That would send a few "A" types over the edge. Years later, he was being interviewed for TV and I saw it in the background.

Bill
 
Bill was a good customer, usually for weather instruments. We cut a few inches off a Celestron First Scope 80 so we could fit a Stereo Viewer onto it.

Ah, to watch Cory with a hacksaw. That would send a few "A" types over the edge. Years later, he was being interviewed for TV and I saw it in the background.

Bill

He's an interesting guy to listen to for sure.
 
Hello Bill,

You always provide a good read. I will make two comments in the subjunctive, since I am not an expert.

Black Crow wrote that Muliti-coating was first developed by Pentax. I believe that he may be correct but Zeiss developed the technology, a lot.

I believe that Zeiss may be licensing much of the technique to other optic manufacturers, who may be using copyrighted terms to suggest that a proprietary coating is being used.

Feel free to shoot me down on these comments.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :hi:

P.S. It is not the glass it is the persistence, patience and consequent experience, which make the bird watcher.
 
Hello Bill,

You always provide a good read. I will make two comments in the subjunctive, since I am not an expert.

Black Crow wrote that Muliti-coating was first developed by Pentax. I believe that he may be correct but Zeiss developed the technology, a lot.

I believe that Zeiss may be licensing much of the technique to other optic manufacturers, who may be using copyrighted terms to suggest that a proprietary coating is being used.

Feel free to shoot me down on these comments.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :hi:

P.S. It is not the glass it is the persistence, patience and consequent experience, which make the bird watcher.

Oh, give it a rest—shoot YOU down!?

You approached that like a real gentleman. That’s why you deserve respect; you’re helping knowledge roll along. Everything I’ve ever read has said Zeiss and B&L came up with the first AR coatings, independently. I wouldn’t doubt Pentax coming up with multi-coatings. However, we must keep in mind that, to this day, the Asian firms keep so many things close to the vest. For example, just because they are world-class, and have been for so long, are the expensive Fujinon’s really manufactured by Fujinon [the ARs, XTs, Birders, and others aren’t]. I don’t know. I doubt it. I’d say Katsuma (JB-2). Considering the size of Fujinon and Fuji Film, and the infinitesimally small binocular division, I see it as, “gum on their shoes.”

As far as your original question, I will have to investigate. I’ll let you know what I find. We have to keep you happy. We want our circuses.

Cheers,

Bill
 
Multi-layer interference coatings, Oleksander Smakula, 1935: Carl Zeiss

;-)

Now then, I don't want you to think I'm nit-picking, but can you provide a source doc. From a recent trip to Wiki, I get:

. . . After his short stay at Odessa University, Smakula returned to Germany as head of an optics laboratory in Heidelberg. From 1934 he worked at the Carl Zeiss AG company in Jena. While at Zeiss, in 1935, Smakula invented and patented optical anti-reflective coatings, a significant advance in optical technology. . .

Which is what I had already investigated and reported on. Arthur's question was about the invention of MULTI-coatings. Do you have anything on that?

So far, I've struck out.

Bill
 
I always thought one of the most extreme bits of hair splitting re. coatings was Steiners 8x30 series of half a dozen models differentiated by coatings "designed for specific applications".
 
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