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World's Best 8X42: The Zeiss 8X56FL (1 Viewer)

henry link

Well-known member
The image provided by the best current binoculars looks so good that it’s easy to fall into the assumption that binoculars are now so close to optical perfection that further improvement wouldn’t accomplish anything as it would be invisible to the eye. Every now and then I disabuse myself of this notion by comparing the best binoculars I have around to an almost perfect low power telescope. I combine a Takahashi FC-50 Fluorite APO refractor with a 48mm eyepiece to make a nearly aberration free 8x50. Compared to this telescope the image in the very best binoculars has always looked quite obviously mushy and dull. It’s really a surprise to see just how far binocular image quality is from what is actually possible from an aberration free low magnification telescope. The main reason for this is simple. Binoculars, even the best ones, are two optically low grade little refractors strapped together. These telescopes need to be very small and light so we can hand hold two of them. That means they have to have very short focal length objectives and that leads to focal ratios so low (around f/4 or less) that the optics inevitably have very high aberrations. The steep f/4 light cone also causes the eyepieces to show worse off axis aberrations than the same eyepiece would have if combined with a slower objective. The trick for the designers is to try to keep the aberrations just low enough so that the low power images from these things will look unobjectionable to the viewer, in spite of all those nasty aberrations lurking just at the threshold of visibility.

I’m always on the lookout for a binocular design that might take those aberrations below the threshold of visibility and approach the image quality of the 8x50 Takahashi. For a while I’ve been intrigued by the potential of the Zeiss 8x56 FL as a binocular that could have unusually low aberrations under daylight conditions. I know this binocular is of very little interest to birders. It’s quite monstrously large and heavy (1210g) compared to 42mm binoculars, some of which birders already consider to be too heavy. I have no interest at all in the 56mm aperture, but the relatively long focal length attracted my attention. The overall length of the 8x56 is about 36mm longer than the 7x42 FL, but actually only 10mm longer than the old Zeiss 7x42 B/GAT. If Zeiss had been willing to make the 42mm FL’s as long as the old 7x42 they would be almost the same length as the 8x56 FL, so you might imagine that optically there is a svelte long focal length 8x42 embedded in the portly 8x56. Recently the binocular buying stars aligned themselves favoraby. An offer to buy my Swarovski 8.5x42 EL coincided with the opportunity for me to buy a demo 8x56FL at a very attractive price. I went for it and I’ve been measuring, testing, comparing it to other binoculars (mainly to the 8x42FL) and using it in the field for a couple of weeks now. I don’t think too many people are interested in this binocular so what follows is not a complete review, but an effort to explain why its image quality is so unusually good and what that says about the compromises in binocular design.

The pair I bought turned out to have one excellent barrel and one barrel with a defective roof prism. A star test of the bad barrel (with the magnification boosted to 64x) shows a spike from the roof prism edge running through the middle of the diffraction pattern on one side of focus and two(!) Airy discs connected by a thin bridge of light on the other side. This causes significantly worse measured resolution and an obviously softer image quality in that barrel compared to the other one at 64x. If this had been a spotting scope I would certainly have returned it. Fortunately I had a nearly perfect barrel to use as a reference and after a lot of scrutiny under every kind of lighting condition at 8x, I concluded that the defect was doing no visible harm to the 8x image. Since my intended use is birding in daylight I was most interested in the binocular’s performance at stopped down apertures in the range of 24mm to 42mm. I measured the resolution and performed star tests with aperture stopdowns to duplicate the limits that the eye’s stopped down entrance pupil would cause in daylight. At each aperture (56mm, 42mm, 32mm and 24mm) I compared the good barrel of the 8x56 to the better barrel of my 8x42FL.

At 56mm: Star test is similar to the 8x42. Perhaps the 8x56 has a liltle more chromatic and spherical aberration. I suspect the 56mm objective is faster than the 42mm, maybe f/3.2-3,4 vs f/3.5-3.7. There is plenty of CA in both, but in fact much less than a conventional binocular. There is also lots of SA, maybe 1.5 waves undercorrection in the 8x42, 1.5-2 waves in the 8x56. Very bad for a telescope, but typical for binoculars. Resolution is about 2.5 arcsec for the 8x56 using the USAF 1951 test pattern. Very good for a binocular, but actually no better than when it’s stopped down to 50mm. The 64x image looks a little cleaner and sharper when the objective is stopped down to 50mm because the aberrations are lower.

Stopped down to 42mm: Things get interesting. Now the 8x56 is clearly superior to the 8x42. Measured resolution is excellent for both, about 2.9 arcsec, but the 64x image looks better in the 8x56. It’s cleaner, with higher contrast and visibly less chromatic aberration. The star test shows improved correction for spherical aberration in the 8x56 to probably better than 1 wave. The improvements are explained by the change in focal ratio. The stopped dowm 8x56 is now operating at around f/4.5 instead of below f/3.5

Stopped down to 32mm: Both stopped down binoculars have about 3.9 arcsec resolution and both show improvements in the 64x image quality. The 8x56 is better. Its 64x image now looks quite respectably clean and contrasty with very little chromatic aberration. Spherical aberration in the 8x56 improves to perhaps 1/2 wave. Now its optics are operating at about f/5.8. The stopped down 8x42 is operating at about f/4.8.

Stopped down to 24mm: Now the 8x56 becomes quite a good f/7.5 telescope, almost a true APO with about 1/4 wave SA..

The point of all this is to show that the 8x56 really has no better (perhaps slightly worse) optics than the 8x42 when they are compared at full aperture, but when the 8x56 is stopped down to 42mm and below it shows significantly lower aberrations than the 8x42 (at the same aperture) simply because the 8x56 focal length is longer. If the 8x42 had the same focal length it would certainly perform just as well.

Now, does any of this matter when you simply look through the binoculars at 8x? To my delight the answer is yes. In daylight he 8x56 FL produces the sharpest, cleanest and most transparent image I’ve yet seen in a binocular. It’s very obvious comparing it to other binoculars tripod mounted, but even hand holding I’m always aware that the image is unusually fine by binocular standards. I wouldn’t have expected any binocular to make the 8x42FL, Nikon 7x50 Prostar and 8x32SE look mushy and dull in sunlight, but the 8x56 FL does it. Besides the reduced longitudinal CA and SA seen in star testing there is also a reduction in lateral color that is quite obvious in daylight. Lateral color is probably almost always what people are seeing when they complain about “color fringing” in binoculars. There is also a modest but welcome increase in the size of the “sweet spot” compared to the 8x42FL. Less lateral color and a bigger sweet spot are two more benefits that come from the higher objective focal ratio, because the less steep light cone allows the eyepiece to perform better off-axis. But, alas, edge of the field astigmatism is still this binocular’s weakest performance characteristic, just like the 8x42FL. The 7mm exit pupil also has a benefit in daylight. There is virtually complete freedom from “flare”. When bright reflections from the edge of the objective reach the eye they are out at the edge of a 7mm circle of light, so the flare tends to fall invisibly on the iris rather than entering the eye.

After experiencing the outstanding daylight image quality of this binocular for the last two weeks there is simply no turning back for me. Even if I look like a 5 year old struggling with his daddy’s big binoculars, the 8x56FL is what I will be using for birding until something better comes along. In spite of the optical quality I doubt that I will ever run into another birder using a pair. I can’t help but think that Zeiss missed an opportunity for making the 42mm FL’s just as optically superior in daylight, if only they had been willing to allow the 42’s to be about 1” longer and a little heavier. I understand that birders want their binoculars short and light, and that drives design decisions, but it also takes a toll on the optical quality.
 
As usual technically perfect Henry, and a fascinating article to boot! I feel that there are possibly others who would be willing to pay the price (weight) for such an apparently super view.
Timedrifter


henry link said:
The image provided by the best current binoculars looks so good that it’s easy to fall into the assumption that binoculars are now so close to optical perfection that further improvement wouldn’t accomplish anything as it would be invisible to the eye. Every now and then I disabuse myself of this notion by comparing the best binoculars I have around to an almost perfect low power telescope. I combine a Takahashi FC-50 Fluorite APO refractor with a 48mm eyepiece to make a nearly aberration free 8x50. Compared to this telescope the image in the very best binoculars has always looked quite obviously mushy and dull. It’s really a surprise to see just how far binocular image quality is from what is actually possible from an aberration free low magnification telescope. The main reason for this is simple. Binoculars, even the best ones, are two optically low grade little refractors strapped together. These telescopes need to be very small and light so we can hand hold two of them. That means they have to have very short focal length objectives and that leads to focal ratios so low (around f/4 or less) that the optics inevitably have very high aberrations. The steep f/4 light cone also causes the eyepieces to show worse off axis aberrations than the same eyepiece would have if combined with a slower objective. The trick for the designers is to try to keep the aberrations just low enough so that the low power images from these things will look unobjectionable to the viewer, in spite of all those nasty aberrations lurking just at the threshold of visibility.

I’m always on the lookout for a binocular design that might take those aberrations below the threshold of visibility and approach the image quality of the 8x50 Takahashi. For a while I’ve been intrigued by the potential of the Zeiss 8x56 FL as a binocular that could have unusually low aberrations under daylight conditions. I know this binocular is of very little interest to birders. It’s quite monstrously large and heavy (1210g) compared to 42mm binoculars, some of which birders already consider to be too heavy. I have no interest at all in the 56mm aperture, but the relatively long focal length attracted my attention. The overall length of the 8x56 is about 36mm longer than the 7x42 FL, but actually only 10mm longer than the old Zeiss 7x42 B/GAT. If Zeiss had been willing to make the 42mm FL’s as long as the old 7x42 they would be almost the same length as the 8x56 FL, so you might imagine that optically there is a svelte long focal length 8x42 embedded in the portly 8x56. Recently the binocular buying stars aligned themselves favoraby. An offer to buy my Swarovski 8.5x42 EL coincided with the opportunity for me to buy a demo 8x56FL at a very attractive price. I went for it and I’ve been measuring, testing, comparing it to other binoculars (mainly to the 8x42FL) and using it in the field for a couple of weeks now. I don’t think too many people are interested in this binocular so what follows is not a complete review, but an effort to explain why its image quality is so unusually good and what that says about the compromises in binocular design.

The pair I bought turned out to have one excellent barrel and one barrel with a defective roof prism. A star test of the bad barrel (with the magnification boosted to 64x) shows a spike from the roof prism edge running through the middle of the diffraction pattern on one side of focus and two(!) Airy discs connected by a thin bridge of light on the other side. This causes significantly worse measured resolution and an obviously softer image quality in that barrel compared to the other one at 64x. If this had been a spotting scope I would certainly have returned it. Fortunately I had a nearly perfect barrel to use as a reference and after a lot of scrutiny under every kind of lighting condition at 8x, I concluded that the defect was doing no visible harm to the 8x image. Since my intended use is birding in daylight I was most interested in the binocular’s performance at stopped down apertures in the range of 24mm to 42mm. I measured the resolution and performed star tests with aperture stopdowns to duplicate the limits that the eye’s stopped down entrance pupil would cause in daylight. At each aperture (56mm, 42mm, 32mm and 24mm) I compared the good barrel of the 8x56 to the better barrel of my 8x42FL.

At 56mm: Star test is similar to the 8x42. Perhaps the 8x56 has a liltle more chromatic and spherical aberration. I suspect the 56mm objective is faster than the 42mm, maybe f/3.2-3,4 vs f/3.5-3.7. There is plenty of CA in both, but in fact much less than a conventional binocular. There is also lots of SA, maybe 1.5 waves undercorrection in the 8x42, 1.5-2 waves in the 8x56. Very bad for a telescope, but typical for binoculars. Resolution is about 2.5 arcsec for the 8x56 using the USAF 1951 test pattern. Very good for a binocular, but actually no better than when it’s stopped down to 50mm. The 64x image looks a little cleaner and sharper when the objective is stopped down to 50mm because the aberrations are lower.

Stopped down to 42mm: Things get interesting. Now the 8x56 is clearly superior to the 8x42. Measured resolution is excellent for both, about 2.9 arcsec, but the 64x image looks better in the 8x56. It’s cleaner, with higher contrast and visibly less chromatic aberration. The star test shows improved correction for spherical aberration in the 8x56 to probably better than 1 wave. The improvements are explained by the change in focal ratio. The stopped dowm 8x56 is now operating at around f/4.5 instead of below f/3.5

Stopped down to 32mm: Both stopped down binoculars have about 3.9 arcsec resolution and both show improvements in the 64x image quality. The 8x56 is better. Its 64x image now looks quite respectably clean and contrasty with very little chromatic aberration. Spherical aberration in the 8x56 improves to perhaps 1/2 wave. Now its optics are operating at about f/5.8. The stopped down 8x42 is operating at about f/4.8.

Stopped down to 24mm: Now the 8x56 becomes quite a good f/7.5 telescope, almost a true APO with about 1/4 wave SA..

The point of all this is to show that the 8x56 really has no better (perhaps slightly worse) optics than the 8x42 when they are compared at full aperture, but when the 8x56 is stopped down to 42mm and below it shows significantly lower aberrations than the 8x42 (at the same aperture) simply because the 8x56 focal length is longer. If the 8x42 had the same focal length it would certainly perform just as well.

Now, does any of this matter when you simply look through the binoculars at 8x? To my delight the answer is yes. In daylight he 8x56 FL produces the sharpest, cleanest and most transparent image I’ve yet seen in a binocular. It’s very obvious comparing it to other binoculars tripod mounted, but even hand holding I’m always aware that the image is unusually fine by binocular standards. I wouldn’t have expected any binocular to make the 8x42FL, Nikon 7x50 Prostar and 8x32SE look mushy and dull in sunlight, but the 8x56 FL does it. Besides the reduced longitudinal CA and SA seen in star testing there is also a reduction in lateral color that is quite obvious in daylight. Lateral color is probably almost always what people are seeing when they complain about “color fringing” in binoculars. There is also a modest but welcome increase in the size of the “sweet spot” compared to the 8x42FL. Less lateral color and a bigger sweet spot are two more benefits that come from the higher objective focal ratio, because the less steep light cone allows the eyepiece to perform better off-axis. But, alas, edge of the field astigmatism is still this binocular’s weakest performance characteristic, just like the 8x42FL. The 7mm exit pupil also has a benefit in daylight. There is virtually complete freedom from “flare”. When bright reflections from the edge of the objective reach the eye they are out at the edge of a 7mm circle of light, so the flare tends to fall invisibly on the iris rather than entering the eye.

After experiencing the outstanding daylight image quality of this binocular for the last two weeks there is simply no turning back for me. Even if I look like a 5 year old struggling with his daddy’s big binoculars, the 8x56FL is what I will be using for birding until something better comes along. In spite of the optical quality I doubt that I will ever run into another birder using a pair. I can’t help but think that Zeiss missed an opportunity for making the 42mm FL’s just as optically superior in daylight, if only they had been willing to allow the 42’s to be about 1” longer and a little heavier. I understand that birders want their binoculars short and light, and that drives design decisions, but it also takes a toll on the optical quality.
 
henry link said:
After experiencing the outstanding daylight image quality of this binocular for the last two weeks there is simply no turning back for me. Even if I look like a 5 year old struggling with his daddy’s big binoculars, the 8x56FL is what I will be using for birding until something better comes along. In spite of the optical quality I doubt that I will ever run into another birder using a pair. I can’t help but think that Zeiss missed an opportunity for making the 42mm FL’s just as optically superior in daylight, if only they had been willing to allow the 42’s to be about 1” longer and a little heavier. I understand that birders want their binoculars short and light, and that drives design decisions, but it also takes a toll on the optical quality.

I suspect they made the right choice from a commercial viewpoint, as they want the 8x42 FL to sell in large quantities. Would most people see the difference? Do you think we could push them for an 8x42 HL? (Do I really have to tell you what the HL means?)

As you know I own a Zeiss 8x42 FL, and excellent though it is, it is far from perfect. I always conclude that any portable 8x42 binocular is going to be a compromise, and the trick is to find the one that best suits ones own taste e.g. low CA, wide field, sharp field edges and so on. Many people criticise the less than stellar edge performance of the 8x42 FL (though it is fine for me). Is the 8x56 better in that regard?
 
henry link said:
The image provided by the best current binoculars looks so good that it’s easy to fall into the assumption that binoculars are now so close to optical perfection that further improvement wouldn’t accomplish anything as it would be invisible to the eye. Every now and then I disabuse myself of this notion by comparing the best binoculars I have around to an almost perfect low power telescope. I combine a Takahashi FC-50 Fluorite APO refractor with a 48mm eyepiece to make a nearly aberration free 8x50. Compared to this telescope the image in the very best binoculars has always looked quite obviously mushy and dull. It’s really a surprise to see just how far binocular image quality is from what is actually possible from an aberration free low magnification telescope. The main reason for this is simple. Binoculars, even the best ones, are two optically low grade little refractors strapped together. These telescopes need to be very small and light so we can hand hold two of them. That means they have to have very short focal length objectives and that leads to focal ratios so low (around f/4 or less) that the optics inevitably have very high aberrations. The steep f/4 light cone also causes the eyepieces to show worse off axis aberrations than the same eyepiece would have if combined with a slower objective. The trick for the designers is to try to keep the aberrations just low enough so that the low power images from these things will look unobjectionable to the viewer, in spite of all those nasty aberrations lurking just at the threshold of visibility.

I’m always on the lookout for a binocular design that might take those aberrations below the threshold of visibility and approach the image quality of the 8x50 Takahashi. For a while I’ve been intrigued by the potential of the Zeiss 8x56 FL as a binocular that could have unusually low aberrations under daylight conditions. I know this binocular is of very little interest to birders. It’s quite monstrously large and heavy (1210g) compared to 42mm binoculars, some of which birders already consider to be too heavy. I have no interest at all in the 56mm aperture, but the relatively long focal length attracted my attention. The overall length of the 8x56 is about 36mm longer than the 7x42 FL, but actually only 10mm longer than the old Zeiss 7x42 B/GAT. If Zeiss had been willing to make the 42mm FL’s as long as the old 7x42 they would be almost the same length as the 8x56 FL, so you might imagine that optically there is a svelte long focal length 8x42 embedded in the portly 8x56. Recently the binocular buying stars aligned themselves favoraby. An offer to buy my Swarovski 8.5x42 EL coincided with the opportunity for me to buy a demo 8x56FL at a very attractive price. I went for it and I’ve been measuring, testing, comparing it to other binoculars (mainly to the 8x42FL) and using it in the field for a couple of weeks now. I don’t think too many people are interested in this binocular so what follows is not a complete review, but an effort to explain why its image quality is so unusually good and what that says about the compromises in binocular design.

The pair I bought turned out to have one excellent barrel and one barrel with a defective roof prism. A star test of the bad barrel (with the magnification boosted to 64x) shows a spike from the roof prism edge running through the middle of the diffraction pattern on one side of focus and two(!) Airy discs connected by a thin bridge of light on the other side. This causes significantly worse measured resolution and an obviously softer image quality in that barrel compared to the other one at 64x. If this had been a spotting scope I would certainly have returned it. Fortunately I had a nearly perfect barrel to use as a reference and after a lot of scrutiny under every kind of lighting condition at 8x, I concluded that the defect was doing no visible harm to the 8x image. Since my intended use is birding in daylight I was most interested in the binocular’s performance at stopped down apertures in the range of 24mm to 42mm. I measured the resolution and performed star tests with aperture stopdowns to duplicate the limits that the eye’s stopped down entrance pupil would cause in daylight. At each aperture (56mm, 42mm, 32mm and 24mm) I compared the good barrel of the 8x56 to the better barrel of my 8x42FL.

At 56mm: Star test is similar to the 8x42. Perhaps the 8x56 has a liltle more chromatic and spherical aberration. I suspect the 56mm objective is faster than the 42mm, maybe f/3.2-3,4 vs f/3.5-3.7. There is plenty of CA in both, but in fact much less than a conventional binocular. There is also lots of SA, maybe 1.5 waves undercorrection in the 8x42, 1.5-2 waves in the 8x56. Very bad for a telescope, but typical for binoculars. Resolution is about 2.5 arcsec for the 8x56 using the USAF 1951 test pattern. Very good for a binocular, but actually no better than when it’s stopped down to 50mm. The 64x image looks a little cleaner and sharper when the objective is stopped down to 50mm because the aberrations are lower.

Stopped down to 42mm: Things get interesting. Now the 8x56 is clearly superior to the 8x42. Measured resolution is excellent for both, about 2.9 arcsec, but the 64x image looks better in the 8x56. It’s cleaner, with higher contrast and visibly less chromatic aberration. The star test shows improved correction for spherical aberration in the 8x56 to probably better than 1 wave. The improvements are explained by the change in focal ratio. The stopped dowm 8x56 is now operating at around f/4.5 instead of below f/3.5

Stopped down to 32mm: Both stopped down binoculars have about 3.9 arcsec resolution and both show improvements in the 64x image quality. The 8x56 is better. Its 64x image now looks quite respectably clean and contrasty with very little chromatic aberration. Spherical aberration in the 8x56 improves to perhaps 1/2 wave. Now its optics are operating at about f/5.8. The stopped down 8x42 is operating at about f/4.8.

Stopped down to 24mm: Now the 8x56 becomes quite a good f/7.5 telescope, almost a true APO with about 1/4 wave SA..

The point of all this is to show that the 8x56 really has no better (perhaps slightly worse) optics than the 8x42 when they are compared at full aperture, but when the 8x56 is stopped down to 42mm and below it shows significantly lower aberrations than the 8x42 (at the same aperture) simply because the 8x56 focal length is longer. If the 8x42 had the same focal length it would certainly perform just as well.

Now, does any of this matter when you simply look through the binoculars at 8x? To my delight the answer is yes. In daylight he 8x56 FL produces the sharpest, cleanest and most transparent image I’ve yet seen in a binocular. It’s very obvious comparing it to other binoculars tripod mounted, but even hand holding I’m always aware that the image is unusually fine by binocular standards. I wouldn’t have expected any binocular to make the 8x42FL, Nikon 7x50 Prostar and 8x32SE look mushy and dull in sunlight, but the 8x56 FL does it. Besides the reduced longitudinal CA and SA seen in star testing there is also a reduction in lateral color that is quite obvious in daylight. Lateral color is probably almost always what people are seeing when they complain about “color fringing” in binoculars. There is also a modest but welcome increase in the size of the “sweet spot” compared to the 8x42FL. Less lateral color and a bigger sweet spot are two more benefits that come from the higher objective focal ratio, because the less steep light cone allows the eyepiece to perform better off-axis. But, alas, edge of the field astigmatism is still this binocular’s weakest performance characteristic, just like the 8x42FL. The 7mm exit pupil also has a benefit in daylight. There is virtually complete freedom from “flare”. When bright reflections from the edge of the objective reach the eye they are out at the edge of a 7mm circle of light, so the flare tends to fall invisibly on the iris rather than entering the eye.

After experiencing the outstanding daylight image quality of this binocular for the last two weeks there is simply no turning back for me. Even if I look like a 5 year old struggling with his daddy’s big binoculars, the 8x56FL is what I will be using for birding until something better comes along. In spite of the optical quality I doubt that I will ever run into another birder using a pair. I can’t help but think that Zeiss missed an opportunity for making the 42mm FL’s just as optically superior in daylight, if only they had been willing to allow the 42’s to be about 1” longer and a little heavier. I understand that birders want their binoculars short and light, and that drives design decisions, but it also takes a toll on the optical quality.
Of great interest as always Henry. I am thinking of changing my latest 8x42 fls for the 10x56 fls ,size and weight not a problem for me. What do you think a good idea or not?
fiddler.
 
Henry,

In additional factor, which I don't believe you mentioned, may contribute to the better view from the 8x56. Since the f-number is larger, the depth of field of the stopped down objective will also be greater. In fact, as I recall, it should improve nonlinearly with the square of the focal length. That, in turn, would lead to less focusing demand, and the world seeming to be less blurred. Do you experience that?

Generalizing a bit, several of the advantages you mentioned for longer local length objectives also apply to differences between pocket, mid-, and full-sized binoculars used in daylight.

Blue skies,
Ed


...The point of all this is to show that the 8x56 really has no better (perhaps slightly worse) optics than the 8x42 when they are compared at full aperture, but when the 8x56 is stopped down to 42mm and below it shows significantly lower aberrations than the 8x42 (at the same aperture) simply because the 8x56 focal length is longer. If the 8x42 had the same focal length it would certainly perform just as well.
 
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elkcub said:
Henry,

In additional factor, which I don't believe you mentioned, may contribute to the better view from the 8x56. Since the f-number is larger, the depth of field of the stopped down objective will also be greater. In fact, as I recall, it should improve nonlinearly with the square of the focal length. That, in turn, would lead to less focusing demand, and the world seeming to be less blurred. Do you experience that?

I skipped class when they taught about the f-ratios and went birding instead. But, would the fact that Swarovski EL 8x32 are longer than Zeiss FL 8x32 explain why they have a slightly better depth of field and better image at the edges of the field?
 
Thanks Guys!

Lief,

The area of apparent field between 10-15 degrees off-axis is better in the 8x56 compared to the 8x42 in daylight. That's what I would call the edge of the "sweet spot". The very edge of the field in the 8x56 is really not appreciably better in daylight and is actually a bit worse in very low light like the night sky. The eyepiece designs are obviously the same. I'm afraid an eyepiece design with relatively high off-axis astigmatism, but which places the midpoint between the tangential and sagittal foci at the field edge close to the plane of central focus is what the Zeiss designers intend. I prefer less astigmatism even when that means more field curvature.

FIDDLER,

I haven't seen the 10x56, but compared to the 8x56 I would expect it to benefit less from the long focal length. At the same stopped down exit pupil size it will have a larger aperture and a lower focal ratio.

Ed,

Comparing the Takahashi 8x50 scope to binoculars is one of the things that brought me around to the view that the f ratio of the objective doesn't change Dof at all. The Tak has a 400mm focal length (f/8). If a high focal ratio objective can increase DOF the Tak should beat any f/4 binocular, yet I see essentially the same DOF through it that I see through any 8x binocular. I do see small differences for reasons that have been discussed before. One of those, suggested by Kimmo Absetz, is that low aberrations lead to greater perceived DOF. I think that's true for the Zeiss 8x56 and the Tak scope. Large amounts of chromatic and spherical aberrations added to defocus looks worse than the same defocus without aberrations. But the difference is quite small compared to changing from 8x to 7x.

Yep, all large exit pupil binoculars will share some of the same optical advantages in daylight compared to small exit pupil binoculars. I'm sure that partly explains the enthusiasm for 7x42's.

John,

Somehow I thought I might hear from you about "mushy and dull" being applied to the SE. Hard to believe, ain't it?

Luca,

It's hard to tell what the focal length of an objective is from external length, especially now that so many binoculars and scopes use internal focusing elements that modify the focal length of the front objective elements. Different prisms sizes or different prism types can also absorb more or less length, which can mean a physically shorter binocular might actually have a longer focal length objective. I'd love it if the manufacturers would tell us more about what really goes on inside these things.
 
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elkcub said:
Henry,

In additional factor, which I don't believe you mentioned, may contribute to the better view from the 8x56. Since the f-number is larger, the depth of field of the stopped down objective will also be greater. In fact, as I recall, it should improve nonlinearly with the square of the focal length. That, in turn, would lead to less focusing demand, and the world seeming to be less blurred. Do you experience that?

Generalizing a bit, several of the advantages you mentioned for longer local length objectives also apply to differences between pocket, mid-, and full-sized binoculars used in daylight.

Blue skies,
Ed


In general DOF is determined by image magnification and the aperture. Apparently the DOF is the same for all 8x binoculars. Maybe that is because the iris acts as the aperture in daylight.

As I've said a year or two ago, I once had a Nikon 8x42 HG which showed reduced DOF in one optical assembly, which was out of collimation. It was first noticed by the owner of SW Optics.
 
henry link said:
...Ed,

Comparing the Takahashi 8x50 scope to binoculars is one of the things that brought me around to the view that the f ratio of the objective doesn't change Dof at all. The Tak has a 400mm focal length (f/8). If a high focal ratio objective can increase DOF the Tak should beat any f/4 binocular, yet I see essentially the same DOF through it that I see through any 8x binocular. I do see small differences for reasons that have been discussed before. One of those, suggested by Kimmo Absetz, is that low aberrations lead to greater perceived DOF. I think that's true for the Zeiss 8x56 and the Tak scope. Large amounts of chromatic and spherical aberrations added to defocus looks worse than the same defocus without aberrations. But the difference is quite small compared to changing from 8x to 7x.
...

Henry,

My source is Warren J. Smith's Modern Optical Engineering, The Design of Opical Systems, Ed. 2, 1990, pp. 145-147.
The concept of depth of focus rests on the assumption that for a given optical system, there exists a blur (due to defocusing) of small enough size such that it will not adversely affect the performance of the system. The Depth of Focus is the amount by which the image may be shifted longitudinally with respect to some image plane (e.g. film, reticle) and which will introduce no more than the acceptable blur.
He then goes on to show that:

DOFocus = (F^2)B/A = F*B*f-number,

where F is the focal length of the system, B is the acceptable angular blur size, and A is the clear aperture. So, depth of focus is proportional to the square of the focal length given a known aperture, or proportional to the focal length times f-number. For camera lenses, which retain a fixed focal length and power, depth of focus changes proportional to f-number. In this discussion, comparing binoculars of a given power, we must consider both focal length and f-number differences, which have a product effect.

As I put it together, this theoretical relationship applies to the objective's image, which is then then projected onto the retina via the ocular. For a given individual it may be assumed, with no loss of generality, that image clarity is determined (as it is with spectacles) by the projected blur being smaller than some idiosyncratic size, Br. Working back to the image plane, therefore, B = Br/P, where P is the power of the binoculars. For any given individual, B is fixed and the prior relationships should obtain.

I hope someone with a greater understanding of theory will correct me if I'm wrong, (for which I'll be most grateful), but at the moment I have to conclude that binoculars with longer focal length objecives do benefit from images with greater depth of focus. That, in turn, is associated with a lower levels of blur at the retina and a better view.

If I might add one additional point, it's becoming evident to me that the same principle potentially explains why the Optolyth Alpins examined by Holger Merlitz and Steve Ingraham have mysterious properties. Yes, they have "tiny" porroprisms, but they also have comparatively long focal length objectives.

Blue skies,
Ed
 
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Leif said:
In general DOF is determined by image magnification and the aperture. Apparently the DOF is the same for all 8x binoculars. Maybe that is because the iris acts as the aperture in daylight.

As I've said a year or two ago, I once had a Nikon 8x42 HG which showed reduced DOF in one optical assembly, which was out of collimation. It was first noticed by the owner of SW Optics.

Leif,

One of my general concerns is that the dynamic eye is influenced by several factors that can have an effect on the image. It is known that accommodation and pupil size are not independent, but while using instruments it isn't fully known how these interactions work. So far as I can determine, the jury is still out about the effect of retinal stimulation area (AFOV) on either of these adaptive responses.

Ed.
 
Ed,

As you probably recall and as Henry mentioned, there was a rather long thread on DoF some time ago. I don't remember if a concensus was reached, but Henry's position in post #9 above is one which is also supported by all the testing I have done with various binoculars of different focal lenghts, both at their full aperture and stopped down. I was expecting an outcome in accordance with the theory you mention, and was quite surprised and even a little bit dismayed when it did not turn out that way.

Kimmo
 
kabsetz said:
Ed,

As you probably recall and as Henry mentioned, there was a rather long thread on DoF some time ago. I don't remember if a concensus was reached, but Henry's position in post #9 above is one which is also supported by all the testing I have done with various binoculars of different focal lenghts, both at their full aperture and stopped down. I was expecting an outcome in accordance with the theory you mention, and was quite surprised and even a little bit dismayed when it did not turn out that way.

Kimmo

Hi Kimmo,

Yes, I recall a recent thread, and also retracting a post that I judged would be too contentious. So I inserted it here instead. ;)

I think there is consensus that magnification is the primary factor with perceived depth of field, and this is consistent with the (simplified) theoretical analysis above. I say "perceived" because two binoculars with identical objectives and different power would "appear" to have different depths of field even though the depth of focus on their image planes would be the same.

In this instance we're talking about subtle differences on the image plane subject to fixed magnification to the retina. I'm not conviced these can be measured with the depth of field techniques I've heard about. Moreover, the assertion that there are no differences is the "null hypothesis," which, as we know, can't be proven empirically. In my opinion, subtly reduced blur at the retina might very well overcome some of the "mushy" perceptions Henry mentioned. However, if there are no differences in depth of focus to be expected at the objective's image plane that really begs to be proven on a theoretical basis given your negative evidence.

Ed
 
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This is a fascinating thread. Thanks to y'all for sharing your wealth of knowledge.

At a given common bird viewing distance, are there calculated, or measured, or perceived plus/minus numbers available? I'm curious what are the real difference(s) as strictly power varies.

Thanks.
 
I can see some areas of confusion here. When I referred to aperture, I was using the term in the photographic manner i.e. F ratio, which means focal length divided by the objective size (or effective objective size when stopped down). Hence DOF depends on F ratio and image magnification only. The circle of confusion also enters into the equation but has I think less influence.

Also by DOF I meant Depth of Field, not Depth of Focus. They are quite different concepts. Depth of Field is a measure of the range of distances over which an object remains in focus.

I guess I should have been clearer in my original post.
 
In this weight range, the 1180g (without batteries) Canon 15x50 and 18x50 IS UD All Weather binoculars are also interesting and well-priced. A friend of ours is very happy with his 15x50's, wearing them bandolier-style; the 15x50's are reviewed in Alula.

Mike
 
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Ed,

Check out this DOF thread from Cloudy Nights. It has plenty of math to chew on. Note that I took a position on DOF and focal ratio similar to yours until I was set right by Jean-Charles Bouget and Holger Merlitz.

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthre...4,5,8,9,10&Number=268206&page=0&view=collapse

Today I cooked up another backyard technique for measuring depth of field. I think this one is less subjective.

I placed two identical small glass spheres at different distances, nearly in line with each other. One at about 8m and the other about 20m from my viewing position. The sun reflecting from the spheres produced glitter points. I focused one barrel of a binocular on the distant glitter point, then (without changing focus) moved the closer glitter point to the field center. The size of the out of focus glitter point indicates how far out of focus it is. A smaller circle indicates it's closer to being in focus. So the binoculars with the smallest out of focus circles have the widest DOF. The beauty part is that the size of the out of focus circle is visually quite stable. It's so far out of focus that my eye couldn't even attempt to accomodate to it. You don't have to try to judge whether one binocular is more or less out of focus than another at the closer distance, all that matters is the size of the circle. As for my results. I'll just say that so far they are consistent with magnification as the only important determinant, but I will keep playing with it. I hope others interested in the DOF question will try this and post results.

Henry
 
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APSmith said:
At a given common bird viewing distance, are there calculated, or measured, or perceived plus/minus numbers available? I'm curious what are the real difference(s) as strictly power varies.

Thanks.

One of Jean-Charles Bouget's posts in the link above contains some mathematically calculated figures for DOF at various magnifications.
 
Henry;

Brilliant idea. Made me try a small revision and shows great promise. I tried same idea but focused on infinity on the collimator then looked at an artificial star. Have to get past a aperture limit on the artificial star though. Thanks for idea.

Quickly tried with a Leitz 8x20, Monarch 8x36 and Leica 12x50. The two 8x had about the same disk size but the 12x were larger but severly clipped by the star aperture. Will let you know tomorrow when I get some of my 6x and 7x out.

Ron
 
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