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Great White Egret (1 Viewer)

Grousemore

Senior Member
I was reading an article about Great White Egrets in my newspaper,the article referring to several having been seen in the UK recently.

One of my books (Birdlife of Britain & Europe)refers to Great White Heron (Ardea alba)and adds that it is also known as the Great White Egret.

The Collins guide refers to Great Egret (Egretta alba)

I have seen Great Egret in America,these being named Ardea alba.

Can anyone explain these apparent differences,or are they the same species?
 
Yep, same species, though the North American ones are a different race (egretta) that is a potential species split for those who like splitting species.

The genetic evidence as to which genus it belongs to is inconclusive, some suggest it is closer to Ardea, others to Egretta, and others still give it a genus of its own Casmerodius.

The species is spreading in Holland and northern France (much like Little Egret did 10-15 years ago), which is why there has been an increase in UK records. I'd not be surprised if they're breeding here within 10 years.

Michael
 
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Same critter. "A rose by any other name would smell the same."

Difference is due to taxonomic shuffling as more is learned from DNA research. Ardea alba is the current Latin.
 
It is generally agreed now that Great (White) Egret is not a member of the genus Egretta but it is still uncertain whether it is best placed in Ardea or a new family CasmerodiUs (note spelling Michael). The British Ornithologists Union places it provisionally in Ardea pending further research.

Spud
 
source is the 23rd BOURC Report (1996).

Statement reads:

"Great Egret Egretta alba
Recent studies of herons (e.g. Payne & Risley, Misc. Publs Mus. Zool. Univ. Michigan. No. 150; Sheldon, Auk 104: 97-108; Sibley & Ahlquist, 1990, Phylogeny and Classification of Birds, Yale U. P.) indicate that the Great Egret is closer to Ardea than Egretta, although placement in the genus Casmerodius has also been suggested. Pending further studies to resolve the latter option, the Great Egret is moved from Egretta to become Ardea alba."

I can only assume that the recent reference to Egretta alba you mention (and privide a link to) relates to the AERC's continuing placement of this species in Egretta as no statement has been issued reversing the 1996 decision.

Spud
 
Hi Spud,

Thanks. Now you mention it, I half-remember seeing a summary of this in BB. Baffling that BB never followed it, as they usually stick fairly closely to BOURC taxonomic decisions. I'll have to search through to see if I can find any BB editorial comment on it.

Michael

Found it: BB 90: 71 (1997) "We prefer to retain the scientific name Egretta alba until the 'further studies' noted by the BOURC have reached a conclusion"
 
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Thanks for the information eveyone,most interesting.

I always assumed that the Latin nomenclature could be relied upon to differentiate species,but that is evidently not the case.
 
Most interesting indeed.

Thanks for posting the quesiton in the first place Grousemore, as this has had an unexpected benefit for me, and perhaps for GGBC 2.

In the first count, I had all kinds of trouble trying to figure out the difference between the three birds you mention. All "three" were reported, and it seemed every source I could find told me something different.

Just the job for an expert!

(Michael... you have been warned! ;) )
 
Not to confuse the issue even further, but Grousemore used the term "Great White Heron" which in the USA is the white morph of the "Great Blue Heron" found in Florida. It is, of course, Ardea herodias.

I checked on the Great Egret in "Birds of Kenya and Northern Tanzania" by Zimmerman, et.al., and the scientific name
given there is Casmerodius albus melanorhynchos

Larry
 
Whew, you saved me, Larry-- I was reading this thread and thinking that the white morph of the Florida Keys was now or was potentially conspecific with Great Egret!-- I've been hanging on to my Great White Heron record for 30 years, waiting for it to be split off. At least it's still possible....
 
The nomenclature of this species must be about as confused as it gets.

The generic name varies between Egretta, Ardea and Casmerodius as we've seen : in skeletal features the species is closest to Ardea but in behaviour it resembles Egretta so Casmerodius has been suggested as a new monotypic genus. Research continues regarding the species' affinities. Another generic name (Herodius) has been used in the past too but has long been redundant.

The species names varies between alba (used in Europe, N. Am and sometimes in Africa) and albus (used in Asia and sometimes in Africa) though this should defintely be alba based on the laws of precedence as it was used by Linnaeus in 1758 (who, incidentally placed it in Ardea) and a couple of authors who preceded him.

The subspecies name of the African population is normally spelled melanorynchos but at least one author (Clements) wrongly uses melanoryncha and others use melanorynchus (perhaps the correct spelling based on precedence). Similarly the Asian subspecies is usually modestus but occasionally this is wrongly spelled modesta.

Some others have pointed out that some of the races differ from each other as much as some full egret species do so a split of at least the Asian (modestus) and American (egretta) races may be due.

Just some of the English names used have been: Great White Egret, Great White Heron (prompting confusion with the white Great Blue Herons of Florida), Large Egret, Great Egret and Greater Egret.

Spud
 
Thanks logos.

Can I make a plea that you all think about this thread when you find mistakes in my global bird list for GGBC and not to be too hard on me! It's an impossible task. I guess that Greenfields has had the same problems when setting up the world database for BF.
 
Robin,

It would make your life easier if you asked everyone to follow one list. I think Clements is available on the web.

Not sure if it would be possible for participants to cut and paste it into excell and fill in the results there before forwarding to you.

Spud
 
That is what I have done. The list everyone is asked to follow is based on a Sibley and Monroe list got from the web and updated for splits etc. My point is that an global bird list (c 10000 species) is always likely to have errors in it.

There are specific instructions for submissions to GGBC and all of these will be verified against the global list.
 
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