Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Magnifying the passion for nature. Zeiss Victory Harpia 95. New!

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 12:46   #1
pete_gamby
Birds? What Birds?!

 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Welwyn Garden City
Posts: 855
USFWS Survey 2016: More Birders Than Hunters?

Just found that the preliminary data from the USFSW survey was published in August (bit slow on the uptake here!).

The data in the report always seems to go against what I hear both on forums and in conversation when I'm in the US.

The numbers that stood out for me are the 45 million total bird observers (page 8) compared to 11 million hunters (page 6). And the $1.8 billion spent on binos and scopes by wildlife watchers (page 17) seems an extraordinary amount but is only $385 per person on average with 4.8 million people buying.

Enjoy:

https://wsfrprograms.fws.gov/subpage...nal_survey.htm

Pete
pete_gamby is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 12:47   #2
pete_gamby
Birds? What Birds?!

 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Welwyn Garden City
Posts: 855
Damn! The 'U' key on my keyboard is duff - can a mod edit the title to put one at the start please :-)
__________________
Pete Gamby
Sales & Marketing Manager - Opticron
pete_gamby is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 13:03   #3
Egrets Ivadafew
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 86
Blog Entries: 2
I find these figures revealing. Wonder how the UK compares.
Egrets Ivadafew is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 13:58   #4
Nixterdemus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 591
Meself, not much of either though if 86 the junk bins I've twice the firearms.

I wonder what the NRA's take is on those figures.
__________________
Celestron M2 f/5.4 100mm ED-Manfrotto 516 fluid head w/140mm sliding plate

SLV 50* 4mm-- HD-60* 4.5mm-- UWA 82* 5.5mm-- SLV 6mm-- Luminos 82* 7mm-- MWA 100* 10mm-- Luminos 15mm--TV Nagler 50* 3mm/180X - 6mm/90X Zoom
Nixterdemus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 14:34   #5
gunut
Registered Offender
 
gunut's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Sussex Wisconsin
Posts: 274
that's because all you have to own to CONSIDER yourself a birder is an old ruby coated tasco laying in the junk drawer.....to consider yourself a hunter you need at least one huntable gun, ammo, license, and a desire to hunt....
gunut is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 14:54   #6
Gilmore Girl
Beth
 
Gilmore Girl's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northeast
Posts: 2,433
Not surprising. Hunting is declining in North America while birding is becoming more popular. This has been the trend for years now.
Gilmore Girl is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2013 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 14:57   #7
Nixterdemus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunut View Post
that's because all you have to own to CONSIDER yourself a birder is an old ruby coated tasco laying in the junk drawer.....to consider yourself a hunter you need at least one huntable gun, ammo, license, and a desire to hunt....
I've a 9mm rimmed rook rifle, #6, #7.5 & #8 shot, that I ease through a crack in the door for cowbirds trespassing under the bird feeder. No need of license und I most definately have the desire to rid the earth of every cowbird I encounter.

Does that qualify me as a hunter?
__________________
Celestron M2 f/5.4 100mm ED-Manfrotto 516 fluid head w/140mm sliding plate

SLV 50* 4mm-- HD-60* 4.5mm-- UWA 82* 5.5mm-- SLV 6mm-- Luminos 82* 7mm-- MWA 100* 10mm-- Luminos 15mm--TV Nagler 50* 3mm/180X - 6mm/90X Zoom
Nixterdemus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 15:05   #8
jurek
Registered User
 
jurek's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Amsterdam/Warszawa
Posts: 3,713
Just wondering how these numbers are best turned into pressure to protect birds? Not necessary against hunters, hunters and birds often have similar interests (e.g. protecting wetlands).

It seems that birders have oddly little influence on the public policy compared to hunters. Time to change it!

BTW, I am curious about similar numbers in mainland Europe.
jurek is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 15:18   #9
Gilmore Girl
Beth
 
Gilmore Girl's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northeast
Posts: 2,433
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
Just wondering how these numbers are best turned into pressure to protect birds? Not necessary against hunters, hunters and birds often have similar interests (e.g. protecting wetlands).

It seems that birders have oddly little influence on the public policy compared to hunters. Time to change it!

BTW, I am curious about similar numbers in mainland Europe.
I believe this is a myth that hunters contribute so much more to conservation than birders.

I buy my duck stamp each year and know other birders who buy them. They are available at wildlife refuges such as Great Swamp in NJ (where I live). Great Swamp for example was saved by Helen Fenske, an environmentalist, from being filled in to make an Airport decades ago. Lots of examples of wildlife enthusiasts, environmentalists and wildlife organizations preserving land for wildlife which aren't specifically hunting orgs.

Sure there are those who don't pitch in yet enjoy the outdoors for wildlife observation, but I think most of us care and help in different ways.

http://wildlife.org/hunters-and-bird...y-to-conserve/
Gilmore Girl is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2013 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 16:36   #10
Troubador
Registered User
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 6,161
Fascinating stuff Pete, thanks for posting.

Lee
Troubador is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 19:20   #11
james holdsworth
Consulting Biologist
 
james holdsworth's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ontario
Posts: 2,925
Remember, these birder numbers usually include people that may occasionally watch birds at their feeders, yards etc., and [as a result] are vastly overstated in terms of what we would consider a ''birder.''
__________________
''serenity now....insanity later.'' - Lloyd Brawn
james holdsworth is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 19:35   #12
Maljunulo
Registered User

 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 462
Quote:
Originally Posted by james holdsworth View Post
Remember, these birder numbers usually include people that may occasionally watch birds at their feeders, yards etc., and [as a result] are vastly overstated in terms of what we would consider a ''birder.''
Also, quite a number "hunt" with camera and binoculars.
__________________
All behavior offends someone.
Maljunulo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 19:41   #13
Gilmore Girl
Beth
 
Gilmore Girl's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northeast
Posts: 2,433
Quote:
Originally Posted by james holdsworth View Post
Remember, these birder numbers usually include people that may occasionally watch birds at their feeders, yards etc., and [as a result] are vastly overstated in terms of what we would consider a ''birder.''
True, there are lots of those people who put a feeder up and watch only occasionally and I understand you're talking about these types.

However, there are also those backyard bird watchers who engage more intensely by spending quite a bit of money attracting birds to their yard and e-birding their patch totals daily. They'll also spend money on a pair or two of binoculars. These types probably bird watch more than I do since I only have the weekends, days off work and sometimes find time before work or on lunch to go to a local spot. So, I wouldn't discount "backyard birders" since some are just as passionate about their hobby...they just don't travel to see birds.
Gilmore Girl is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2013 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 13th October 2017, 00:17   #14
jurek
Registered User
 
jurek's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Amsterdam/Warszawa
Posts: 3,713
I think it is not possible to call occassional birders 'not yet birders'. One cannot identify some external border, at what level of interest in birds one can be called a birder. Owns binoculars? Birder is a person who simply identifies itself as purposefully watching birds. It is no different from hunting - some hunters don't regularly go hunting.

What matters is how well all birders form a pressure group for conservation causes, and how to make it better. Hunters, in my opinion, are more active, better organized as a lobby, and also perceived publicly as more important lobby. Birders still are perceived, and see themselves, as a narrow niche hobby. However it is clear that birding is not a niche hobby anymore and should have bigger impact on politics than hunting.

Last edited by jurek : Friday 13th October 2017 at 00:19.
jurek is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 13th October 2017, 00:44   #15
Gilmore Girl
Beth
 
Gilmore Girl's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northeast
Posts: 2,433
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
I think it is not possible to call occassional birders 'not yet birders'. One cannot identify some external border, at what level of interest in birds one can be called a birder. Owns binoculars? Birder is a person who simply identifies itself as purposefully watching birds. It is no different from hunting - some hunters don't regularly go hunting.

What matters is how well all birders form a pressure group for conservation causes, and how to make it better. Hunters, in my opinion, are more active, better organized as a lobby, and also perceived publicly as more important lobby. Birders still are perceived, and see themselves, as a narrow niche hobby. However it is clear that birding is not a niche hobby anymore and should have bigger impact on politics than hunting.
All good points and well said.

Hardly mentioned are also hunter/birders who represent both sides and support conservation efforts and various organizations.
Gilmore Girl is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2013 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 13th October 2017, 05:02   #16
Nixterdemus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
However it is clear that birding is not a niche hobby anymore and should have bigger impact on politics than hunting.
No problemo.

When bins/scopes sales exceed firearms/ammo voila!

Cloutamus maximus.
__________________
Celestron M2 f/5.4 100mm ED-Manfrotto 516 fluid head w/140mm sliding plate

SLV 50* 4mm-- HD-60* 4.5mm-- UWA 82* 5.5mm-- SLV 6mm-- Luminos 82* 7mm-- MWA 100* 10mm-- Luminos 15mm--TV Nagler 50* 3mm/180X - 6mm/90X Zoom
Nixterdemus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 13th October 2017, 09:58   #17
Egrets Ivadafew
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 86
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilmore Girl View Post
I believe this is a myth that hunters contribute so much more to conservation than birders.
Writing these words from the heart of foxhunting country, I can honestly say we had this argument on the run up to the hunting with dogs ban. The pro hunting lobby said all the fox coverts would be cut down and the land ploughed (that the rolling hills of Leicestershire would become barren of trees), that there would be an explosion in the fox population, and that starved through sheer numbers, the foxes would decimate ground nesting birds, spread disease, etc, etc.
Thirteen years since the ban and the coverts still stand, the fox population is stable, the ground nesting bird population is stable (but in slow decline due to other reasons), and Leicestershire seems to rumble on just as it's always done.
As for the birders/nature lovers? The Leicestershire and Rutland Wildlife Trust currently manage over 30 nature reserves within the two counties, not to mention Rutland Water, which was originally a basin dug in 1976 to provide drinking water, and is now an internationally important 'Heathrow Airport' for thousands of birds.
Egrets Ivadafew is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 13th October 2017, 17:47   #18
james holdsworth
Consulting Biologist
 
james holdsworth's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ontario
Posts: 2,925
Regardless of your definition of ''birder'', that 45 million number is [as it has been in every survey of this type for years] massively inflated and unrealistic.
__________________
''serenity now....insanity later.'' - Lloyd Brawn
james holdsworth is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 16th October 2017, 00:48   #19
jurek
Registered User
 
jurek's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Amsterdam/Warszawa
Posts: 3,713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixterdemus View Post
When bins/scopes sales exceed firearms/ammo voila!
Strength of hunting lobby is mostly that it is better organized that birding lobby.

Money from gun/ammo sales are not sequitur. Lobbying for e.g. open season comes from hunters themselves, not gun salesmen. Hunting rifles and ammunition are only minority of those sold in the USA.

Anyway, I meant that birders should watch, replicate and better lobbying of hunters. I did not mean that lobbying by birders should be against hunters or vice versa. As others said, interests of birders and hunters are usually not clashing, some people are both and some interests are the same.
jurek is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 16th October 2017, 03:28   #20
Nixterdemus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 591
More organized politically w/much more money to peddle influence.

How many bin manufacturers do not sell rifle scopes?

How many offer more bin models than rifle scope models?

Would the prevailing logic be to offer more models in the area that sells the most or the least?

As well I do not attempt to pit one side against the other either as conservation is embraced by birder & hunter alike.

Open seasons are regulated by state and federal government somewhat dependent on estimation of harvested game and current population be it hunting or fishing. Hunters/fishermen have very limited influence.

You are welcome to your opinion, but the gun lobby is most definitely fueled by firearms/ammunition sales.


According to ATFB in 2013 10,844,792
total firearms were produced in the states. None of these were for military, but did include police departments. Exports totaled 393,121. Imports totaled 5,539,539. Grand total for 2013 was a net plus 15,991,210 firearms.

For years the ammunition companies were unable to supply demand in the states. Not so much shotgun shells, but pistol calibre, the all time plinking round .22 along w/military style 5.56 NATO and 7.62x 39.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/ar...the-gun-lobby/

2014 spending gun rights Vs. gun control in the states.

Independent Campaign Spending- GR $28,638,201 GC $13,643,045
Direct Federal Campaign Spending-GR $2,125,598 GC $399,750
Federal Lobby Spending- GR $9,287,728 GC $ 1,378,073

$40,051,527 Vs. $15,420,868 Gun rights spending almost 2.6X more and fueled by the sales leading to superior contributions in a nutshell.
__________________
Celestron M2 f/5.4 100mm ED-Manfrotto 516 fluid head w/140mm sliding plate

SLV 50* 4mm-- HD-60* 4.5mm-- UWA 82* 5.5mm-- SLV 6mm-- Luminos 82* 7mm-- MWA 100* 10mm-- Luminos 15mm--TV Nagler 50* 3mm/180X - 6mm/90X Zoom
Nixterdemus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 16th October 2017, 06:49   #21
rosbifs
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Luz St Sauveur, France
Posts: 3,413
Most of the hunters here all have binoculars - and mostly swaroski. My neighbour even has a swaroski 95mm scope! Imagine how jealous I am of him - he is not a birdwatcher - and one neighbour the other side just spent 700€ on a pair of binoculars - he is neither birdwatcher or hunter.

Last example friends parents who have a pair of Zeiss Dialyt to see their horses!

Anyway, as mentioned above, binocular sales are not all to birdwatchers. As for the figures, 45million birdwatchers, surprises me greatly. There are 1M members of the RSPB in the UK but not 1M birdwatchers...
rosbifs is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 16th October 2017, 09:15   #22
Egrets Ivadafew
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 86
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurek View Post
Hunters, in my opinion, are more active, better organized as a lobby, and also perceived publicly as more important lobby. Birders still are perceived, and see themselves, as a narrow niche hobby.
Fox hunting was enjoyed by the very elite of British society, Royalty, the titled, judges, landowners, MPs. If ever there was an organised lobby, they were it. Yet it got banned, not through nature lovers / mammal watchers winning the battle over the hunters, but through that innocent glass screen we keep in our houses.
There had been a growing view that fox hunting had become something medieval, like hawking, or bear baiting, yet the masses were willing to look the other way because there was also a belief that only old or diseased foxes got caught, and that the fit ones got away (a sort of unnatural selection). Then came a news feature, broadcast nationally, and said masses found themselves witnessing the filming of a hunt that had chased a fox to ground, before sending in a terrier to drag it out. Letters of complaint were written, a lot of letters, and the ball started rolling (incidentally, the bulletin hadn't been shown to highlight the cruelty, but because Prince Charles was a member of the hunt involved, and in the UK, Royalty + Controversy = instantaneous blanket headlines).
Of course, hunting with guns isn't hunting with dogs, and here the masses DO look the other way (prior to tipping off the British press, maybe someone ought to persuade Prince Charles to nip up to a Cumbrian Grouse moor and take out a Hen Harrier with a twelve bore). Dark humour aside, in these wildlife aware times, maybe hunting will dwindle away, maybe it wont. In the absence of some serious e-mailing, I suspect we'll hear the distant thump of gunshot for sometime yet.
The Hunting with Dogs Act, President Trump, Brexit -never underestimate the power of the many.
Egrets Ivadafew is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 16th October 2017, 10:17   #23
Patudo
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: London
Posts: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Egrets Ivadafew View Post
Fox hunting was enjoyed by the very elite of British society, Royalty, the titled, judges, landowners, MPs. If ever there was an organised lobby, they were it. Yet it got banned
It seems very much business as usual for these folks. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/lo...-a7948516.html) The laws may be on the statutes, but cannot be enforced - which results in contempt for the law. That cannot be a good thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Egrets Ivadafew View Post
maybe someone ought to persuade Prince Charles to nip up to a Cumbrian Grouse moor and take out a Hen Harrier with a twelve bore.
No need - when Harry... or one of his mates... already has!

Last edited by Patudo : Monday 16th October 2017 at 11:17.
Patudo is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 16th October 2017, 11:00   #24
Nixterdemus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 591
I see more glass sitting on rifles than attached to neck straps when it comes to hunters.

Nikon Sports Optics search lists 147 results in Riflescopes.

Their AR/MSR riflescopes alone lists 30 models.

https://www.nikonsportoptics.com/en/...pes/index.page

https://www.nikonsportoptics.com/en/...msr/index.page

Nikon is sensitive to the ethics of hunting.

They will not allow any retailer that sells their cameras to sell their riflescopes.

Though you may peddle other manufacturers riflescopes along side Nikon cameras.
__________________
Celestron M2 f/5.4 100mm ED-Manfrotto 516 fluid head w/140mm sliding plate

SLV 50* 4mm-- HD-60* 4.5mm-- UWA 82* 5.5mm-- SLV 6mm-- Luminos 82* 7mm-- MWA 100* 10mm-- Luminos 15mm--TV Nagler 50* 3mm/180X - 6mm/90X Zoom

Last edited by Nixterdemus : Monday 16th October 2017 at 11:09.
Nixterdemus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 16th October 2017, 11:43   #25
Egrets Ivadafew
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 86
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patudo View Post
The laws may be on the statutes, but cannot be enforced
Catch22 I'm afraid Patudo. It's called Drag Hunting (a sort of mammalian version of a clay pigeon shoot). A guy goes out early morning dragging fabric containing a false scent (usually aniseed) for several miles, and the hounds follow this. The hunt can do this because it's not illegal to wear hunting gear, it's not illegal to ride horses, and it's not illegal to exercise a pack of dogs. Of course, any member of Birdforum can guess what's probably going to happen when the drag crosses a scent laid by a fox.
It can be policed but only with great difficulty, someone has to not just film it, but prove the fox was in sight of the pursuers, or film the den being dug up and / or terriers being sent in. If it is proved, the maximum fine is 5,000.
As for Prince Harry's mates? Nothing surprises me.
Egrets Ivadafew is online now  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2016 House Martin Survey (BTO) BF Newsroom Latest news from the BTO 0 Thursday 17th March 2016 11:05
Study: Are Wildlife Recreationists (hunters, birders) Conservationists? Acrocephalus Conservation 0 Wednesday 6th May 2015 15:04
Birders survey for Regional Natural Park of the Alpilles in France Lisa Harris Birds & Birding 1 Tuesday 20th November 2012 07:54
Survey of your fellow birders instruments.... spyglass Binoculars 39 Monday 17th May 2010 23:57

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.19472599 seconds with 37 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 09:15.