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duck ID help (1 Viewer)

S

Szabo Jozsef

Well-known member
The picture attached was taken in 1st of November here in Romania, and has generated a great deal of discussion on our email forum.
My first impression was that it's a Tufted duck, but a lot of people thought that this is actually a Greater Scaup.
What is your oipinion? and why this bird is, or not, a Tufted duck?
Jozsef
 

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I think its Tufted Duck with a large, but not impossibly large white face patch.

Why... its mostly about build. This bird looks quite short on the water, though the angle might lead to a bit of foreshortening. The best distinguisher is the head shape. Scaup have really rounded heads, almost like a Mallard. Tufties heads have "angles" on them. That steep forehead and obvious angle in front of the eye is classic Tuftie, Enough to make me say that this is unlikely to be a hybrid.

I can't make out any detail on the bill, which might give some help if you could. Small black central oval on the nail for Scaup. Wider triangle for Tuftie.

In summary I think its not a Scaup, it might just be a hybrid, but its most likely a pureTuftie.

I hate ducks!
 
Jane Turner said:
I think its Tufted Duck with a large, but not impossibly large white face patch.

Why... its mostly about build. This bird looks quite short on the water, though the angle might lead to a bit of foreshortening. The best distinguisher is the head shape. Scaup have really rounded heads, almost like a Mallard. Tufties heads have "angles" on them. That steep forehead and obvious angle in front of the eye is classic Tuftie, Enough to make me say that this is unlikely to be a hybrid.

I can't make out any detail on the bill, which might give some help if you could. Small black central oval on the nail for Scaup. Wider triangle for Tuftie.

In summary I think its not a Scaup, it might just be a hybrid, but its most likely a pureTuftie.

I hate ducks!
Click to expand...

I agree I think this is a pure Tuftie. The face blaze can be quite extensive. For an extreme example take a look at these pics. When on its own this bird had us scratching our heads but when it swam with other Tufties appeared to be just like them in structure. Still can't see it as pure myself though, mainly because of the other pale markings on the head. It could even have a bit of Ring-necked in it.
 

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I'd go along with it being a Tufted Duck - maybe an immature. I'd never rule out a hybrid but there seem to me to be a lot of Tuftie characters and not much in the way of really obvious Scaup features (although I wonder about the bill). The plumage is very Tufted Duck.
 
Anyone care to define 'pure' Tufted Duck !?!

Given the frequency of Tuftie x Scaup hybrids, and the fertility of these hybrids down to the nth generation, has it ever been proven that 'scaup-faced' Tufties are not like that because they are actually carrying one or more Scaup genes? (can anyone guarantee that there is such a thing as a Tuftie with no Scaup genes? - or vice-versa? [Scaup with no Tuftie genes]).

As to Szabo's bird, I reckon it probably does have some Scaup genes in it, even though the majority of its genome is Tufted. Not just the white face, but also that hefty bill with no (or next to no) black on the tip.

Michael
 
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Joszef, to me this is a pure Tufted Duck, looking on build and head pattern and bill of this bird.
At the baltic see coast we have scaup and tufted duck wintering. There we sometimes get tufted ducks with even bigger white patches on the head, sometimes looking extremely scaup-like in this respect (maybe a few of them have a scaup hidden somewhere in their ancestry), but from build and head shape still typical tufted duck like your bird.

Joern
 
Scaups are not that common out here in Romania, Tufted is breeding only since the beginning of the 90's, but we do have large numbers of Tufted's in winter. Really, my first impression was that this is a pure Tufted, but the shape of the bill and also it's size and color are not convincing, as Michael has pointed out this feature, the bird may has some Scaup genes.
Thanks so far for the comments
Jozsef
 
That´s a good Idea,

we could take all Aythyas as one thing , all Anas as one thing, and all Anser-Branta as one thing.

Thats really simplifying! ;)

OK, I readily admit, a pure Aythya might or might not exist, but then, this could also just be a tuftie having a big mouth (or bill). I would not think this that important when everything else also points to Tufted duck. Some gene flow between closely related bird species seems quite common ...
 
Hi Joern,

I'd agree, I'd tick this as a Tuftie too. I'm really just teasing some people about the need for their birds to be genetically 'pure and uncontaminated' by any trace of past hybridisation, before they will tick them as anything.

We have to face the facts that genetic 'leakage' between species in some groups (particularly Aythya ducks!) is commonplace, normal and to be expected, and that this shouldn't exclude those individuals from being considered representatives of their species.

Personally, I think the idea that birds (be they Tufted Ducks, or Ferruginous Ducks) have to be genetically 'pure' to be tickable is a hangover from creationist ideas and nazism, and has no place in modern science & ethics.

Michael
 
brianhstone said:
I agree I think this is a pure Tuftie. The face blaze can be quite extensive. For an extreme example take a look at these pics. When on its own this bird had us scratching our heads but when it swam with other Tufties appeared to be just like them in structure. Still can't see it as pure myself though, mainly because of the other pale markings on the head. It could even have a bit of Ring-necked in it.
Click to expand...

Tuftie? Have my doubts the nib is not prominently shown. The pic at that angle should show the nib prominently.

I'm not convinced at all:-( Hybrid possible! Where was it seen inland/coastal?

Osprey
 
Sorry for my late reply, i was in short trip incl. birdwatching.
The bird was seen inland (see vegetation also) in the 1st of November, date which for both species is Ok here.
Still most of the people consider this bird as a Tuftie, should close this discussion here, or there are others who might think that it is actually an other species (Scaup)?
 
Jane Turner said:
Its definitely not a Scaup....that much is certain. :)
Click to expand...

Taken from the BWP on CD-ROM: copyright Oxford University Press.

Lesser Scaup:

Female and immature difficult to separate from Scaup and Tufted Ducks with white around bill, but at close range, small bill nail and lack of drooping crest should eliminate latter.

Desperate I know ;)

Records in Switzerland regarded as escapes.

Maybe an escapee !! The nail or nib's confusing me unless it brushed it's teeth ;)

I hate female ducks!

Osprey
 
Bluetail said:
Surely entirely the wrong head shape for Lesser Scaup?

Jason
Click to expand...

Oh dear, am I falling for it ;) At the moment I'm switching between the original downloaded photo and the BWT illustration no differene IMHO. Now a book on me knee nope similar ;)

I acknowledge illustrations can be the artists "sumatt" Hilary Burns illustrations are pretty good though!

I still feel that the bill nail tells me it 'aint a TD or G Scaup! Unless the jpg has been doctored, that I doubt.

Where's the Scaup in all this! We have greater, lesser ;) Where's the normal?

BTW What head shape do they have? I'm just going off the BWP illustrations!

Surely they don't make mistakes, HeHe

ATB

Osprey
 
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