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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Can a $300 binocular compete with a $1900 binocular ? (1 Viewer)

I've had the Zen ED2, Leupold McKinley, Kowa Genesis, 10X42 SE, 12X50 SE all here to compare. Does that sound like a pretty good group? Do you think that after seeing all of them for the last couple of months I might have a decent point of reference ? Are you sure that when you do your Swaro-Prime side by side you don't have a bottle of muscatel in the middle ? B :):eek!:

perterra said:
Take a look at the Conquest HD or Zen Prime HD before you judge everything else lacking. If I'm not comparing them side by side, I cant tell the difference in the Swaro or the Zen Prime HD. Side by side, just a little difference, but not enough to say wow.
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Don't take it personally Bruce! o:)
Brock often doesn't even need a post that bears any relevance to his reply .... just a keyboard and a blank screen to give him the opportunity to scratch his compulsive itch to write and express his own worldview! :-O

No harm, no foul ..... :t:


Chosun :gh:
 
bh46118 said:
I've had the Zen ED2, Leupold McKinley, Kowa Genesis, 10X42 SE, 12X50 SE all here to compare. Does that sound like a pretty good group? Do you think that after seeing all of them for the last couple of months I might have a decent point of reference ? Are you sure that when you do your Swaro-Prime side by side you don't have a bottle of muscatel in the middle ? B :):eek!:
Click to expand...

If you havent looked thru anything but those, you really dont have a very good point of reference.

If you lready have all the answers, I'm not real sure what you wanted anyone else to do other than praise you for your purchase.
 
So your telling everyone here that there aren't any good binoculars in that list. The McKinley and Prime according to the reviews on this forum have damn near the same image. The McKinley I had was average at best. The 10X42 SE isn't a good benchmark, seriously, do you just talk to here your head rattle ?

perterra said:
If you havent looked thru anything but those, you really dont have a very good point of reference.

If you lready have all the answers, I'm not real sure what you wanted anyone else to do other than praise you for your purchase.
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bh46118 said:
So your telling everyone here that there aren't any good binoculars in that list. The McKinley and Prime according to the reviews on this forum have damn near the same image. The McKinley I had was average at best. The 10X42 SE isn't a good benchmark, seriously, do you just talk to here your head rattle ?
Click to expand...

The SE's are pretty good, the others are $300 to $400 glasses.

You act too tempermental to be a millwright, I think maybe you are a welder instead. I'm bettin your toolbox just has a bunch of different size hammers.
 
bh46118 said:
I wold love to meet you in person, I'm sure we could have a real nice talk.
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Seriously, you need to think before you type.

20hvlsg-1.jpg
 
The Kowa Genesis is a $400 binocular ? What kind of a fabulous technician are you ? Not good enough to afford a top of the line binocular apparently.:-O

perterra said:
The SE's are pretty good, the others are $300 to $400 glasses.

You act too tempermental to be a millwright, I think maybe you are a welder instead. I'm bettin your toolbox just has a bunch of different size hammers.
Click to expand...
 
bh46118 said:
The Kowa Genesis is a $400 binocular ? What kind of a fabulous technician are you ? Not good enough to afford a top of the line binocular apparently.:-O
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I think you yourself said the Kowa wasnt all that hot. I've never seen one, but if it's bested by a relatively inexpensive Minox, then it leaves something to be desired.

I have a Conquest HD and the Zen Ray Primes, I dont need anything else but a sip of tbird on ice.
 
It sells for almost $1400. You're taking my word on the view of a binocular you haven't seen for yourself ?

perterra said:
I think you yourself said the Kowa wasnt all that hot. I've never seen one, but if it's bested by a relatively inexpensive Minox, then it leaves something to be desired.

I have a Conquest HD and the Zen Ray Primes, I dont need anything else but a sip of tbird on ice.
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bh46118 said:
It retails for almost $1400. You're taking my word on the view of a binocular ?
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You looked through the Kowa, I havent. If you tell me it doesnt suit you, then yeah I tend to believe it doesnt suit you. But when you tell me nothing else even comes close Swaro, but you say you havent looked through that many, then I have my doubts that nothing comes close. I have looked through a lot of them, theres a lot of them that are close to the same view. I drop in SWFA's new store about once a week to pick up ammo, I get a chance to look through a lot of glass. Every Swaro, every Zeiss (no SF yet) every Leica, all the current Nikons, the Vortex (the razor HD is good).

It's $1400 and not that good, brings to light what I have been preaching all along, money is not an indicator of quality.

Like I said earlier, to me the Swaro optics arent good enough to make me pick one over either a Zeiss, a Leica or even the Razor. But their warranty is, it's first rate and they take care of their customer. I've not needed Zeiss's warranty, they may be just as good, as Zen may be. But I know for a fact Swaro does take care of the user.
 
Go back and read post #56 where I said I would like to see the EDG, FL, HT, SF, and SLC before I decide on the EL. Unfortunately I don't have access to them, so it's probably going to be the EL that I go with. I have never once said these are the best of all. I'm just damned happy with them and wanted to share my experience. When you try to tell me a ZEN prime is almost as good, that's just pure bulls$%t. As far as your tough guy post, if someone badgers me in person the way you have on here, one of the two of us will get their ass beat, you can count on that. I'm done with this thread, so finish it up however you want to.

perterra said:
You looked through the Kowa, I havent. If you tell me it doesnt suit you, then yeah I tend to believe it doesnt suit you. But when you tell me nothing else even comes close Swaro, but you say you havent looked through that many, then I have my doubts that nothing comes close. I have looked through a lot of them, theres a lot of them that are close to the same view. I drop in SWFA's new store about once a week to pick up ammo, I get a chance to look through a lot of glass. Every Swaro, every Zeiss (no SF yet) every Leica, all the current Nikons, the Vortex (the razor HD is good).

It's $1400 and not that good, brings to light what I have been preaching all along, money is not an indicator of quality.

Like I said earlier, to me the Swaro optics arent good enough to make me pick one over either a Zeiss, a Leica or even the Razor. But their warranty is, it's first rate and they take care of their customer. I've not needed Zeiss's warranty, they may be just as good, as Zen may be. But I know for a fact Swaro does take care of the user.
Click to expand...
 
Ive lost my faith a little in the Minox / HRWP'S as giant killers. Recently Ive sought to rekindle my love for the HRWP 8x42 and the first one I got had a truly terrible focuser and was sent back straight away, the second was just not as sharp as I remembered ( SEs as reference) they just seemed rather dim too.
So not sure if Ive just been spoiled by better optics or if sample variation is a real issue optically.
Get a good sample of a Conquest HD though and they are true giant killers, I preferred them to both my FL 7x42 and SLC HD 8x42. For me an SE beats them all though.
 
bh46118 said:
Go back and read post #56 where I said I would like to see the EDG, FL, HT, SF, and SLC before I decide on the EL. Unfortunately I don't have access to them, so it's probably going to be the EL that I go with. I have never once said these are the best of all. I'm just damned happy with them and wanted to share my experience. When you try to tell me a ZEN prime is almost as good, that's just pure bulls$%t. As far as your tough guy post, if someone badgers me in person the way you have on here, one of the two of us will get their ass beat, you can count on that. I'm done with this thread, so finish it up however you want to.
Click to expand...

This aint badgering
 
Chosun Juan said:
Don't take it personally Bruce! o:)
Brock often doesn't even need a post that bears any relevance to his reply .... just a keyboard and a blank screen to give him the opportunity to scratch his compulsive itch to write and express his own worldview! :-O

No harm, no foul ..... :t:


Chosun :gh:
Click to expand...

Unlike yours, my post was very relevant and not intended to be insulting. No need to apologize for me, missy!

As for verbosity, all I can do is reply in your native tongue:

:C:eek!::stuck::brains::gh::flyaway:

Brock
 
Brock

After reading your post more carefully, I realized I way over reacted and deleted my response . That being said, the BP is every bit as good as I say it is, and a good reference for detail retrieval. I didn't keep the SE because I didn't think the image was worth $700. The EL 10 X42 SV on the other hand, I can see paying $1900 for, but just once in my lifetime. Is the SV as good as an EDG, FL, SF ? I don't know. Any way, sorry for the bad post.

Bruce

brocknroller said:
Unlike yours, my post was very relevant and not intended to be insulting. No need to apologize for me, missy!

As for verbosity, all I can do is reply in your native tongue:

:C:eek!::stuck::brains::gh::flyaway:

Brock
Click to expand...
 
Sorry for offending you with my post, Bruce, that was not my intention, I didn't understand where you were going with this, and was trying to get some clarification, but now I see that you have come down with a bad case of alphaititis! Been there myself after trying the 10x42 SLC-HD. For a wistful moment, I thought about selling all my Porros and buying an SLC-HD, but then I switched to non-alcoholic beer and the gas finally passed. B :)

If you keep focused on that gritty focuser, your alphaitis might clear up, too! Of course, you could find another sample or send it in to Swaro to get sorted out. In most cases, they do, but not always.

If you can afford it, why not go fer it? But I wouldn't rationalize the cost over 20 years, because you can't pay it off w/out interest over 20 years.

Famine, pestilence, plagues and more smilies by Chosun are surely just around the corner, so like somebody wrote in your H.S. yearbook, "Live life to its fullest."

I would buy a 10x42 SLC-HD if I could afford it (or pay it off w/out interest over 20 years). I don't think the SLC-HD is really worth $1,799, it's good but not that good, not sure any bin is worth $1,800 let alone $2,600 in an absolute sense, if that's even calculable, but I've seen SLC-HDs for as low as $1,400. That's the price of two SEs. Is the SLC-HD twice as good as the SE? Nope.

Would I get twice as much enjoyment out of it? I don't know. I would miss the 3-D effect, but that's not as important in a 10x as it is in an 8x. Not having to deal with the uncomfortable SE eyecups and yet still have view that was sharp almost to the edge was very enjoyable. Not sure about the ergonomics, though, I like the SE's ergonomics better. While the SLC's extra weight helps keep those bad vibrations from a-happenin', I think my arms and shoulders would be sore after a day out in the field with the 28 oz. SLC-HD, particularly because of the way I hold roofs vs. Porros.

Unlike you, I can't afford an SLC-HD, so I don't have your dilemma.

Seemed like you either wanted us to convince you the SV EL was worth it or that it wasn't. What I think or anyone else thinks is irrelevant. It's your choice. If you can't decide, flip a coin and let fate decree. It's better than being stuck. :stuck:

Brock
 
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This thread has gotten out of control, and I bear as much responsibility as anyone for that. I came on here to share my excitement about a new binocular, and felt immediately like I needed to defend myself for having the audacity to even contemplate buying such a thing. As you can see, when I get nitpicked, I become a little too defensive. Can I afford it, barely. Should I buy it, probably not. After having it in my hands for a few days do I want it, hell yes.:-O Maybe a used or refurb EDG would be better for half the money. I don't know how to try them all without wasting to much time, and time is money after all. I think Perterra and I would actually get along well if we met in person, but a lot is lost in conversing on the computer.

brocknroller said:
Sorry for offending you with my post, Bruce, that was not my intention, I didn't understand where you were going with this, and was trying to get some clarification, but now I see that you have come down with a bad case of alphaititis! Been there myself after trying the 10x42 SLC-HD. For a wistful moment, I thought about selling all my Porros and buying an SLC-HD, but then I switched to non-alcoholic beer and the gas finally passed. B :)

If you keep focused on that gritty focuser, your alphaitis might clear up, too! Of course, you could find another sample or send it in to Swaro to get sorted out. In most cases, they do, but not always.

If you can afford it, why not go fer it? But I wouldn't rationalize the cost over 20 years, because you can't pay it off w/out interest over 20 years.

Famine, pestilence, plagues and more smilies by Chosun are surely just around the corner, so like somebody wrote in your H.S. yearbook, "Live life to its fullest."

I would buy a 10x42 SLC-HD if I could afford it (or pay it off w/out interest over 20 years). I don't think the SLC-HD is really worth $1,799, it's good but not that good, not sure any bin is worth $1,800 let alone $2,600 in an absolute sense, if that's even calculable, but I've seen SLC-HDs for as low as $1,400. That's the price of two SEs. Is the SLC-HD twice as good as the SE? Nope.

Would I get twice as much enjoyment out of it? I don't know. I would miss the 3-D effect, but that's not as important in a 10x as it is in an 8x. Not having to deal with the uncomfortable SE eyecups and yet still have view that was sharp almost to the edge was very enjoyable. Not sure about the ergonomics, though, I like the SE's ergonomics better. While the SLC's extra weight helps keep those bad vibrations from a-happenin', I think my arms and shoulders would be sore after a day out in the field with the 28 oz. SLC-HD, particularly because of the way I hold roofs vs. Porros.

Unlike you, I can't afford an SLC-HD, so I don't have your dilemma.

Seemed like you either wanted us to convince you the SV EL was worth it or that it wasn't. What I think or anyone else thinks is irrelevant. It's your choice. If you can't decide, flip a coin and let fate decree. It's better than being stuck. :stuck:

Brock
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brocknroller said:
Unlike yours, my post was very relevant and not intended to be insulting. No need to apologize for me, missy!

As for verbosity, all I can do is reply in your native tongue:

:eek!::brains:

Brock
Click to expand...

Brock I'm shocked! :eek!:
In no way was my post "intended" to be insulting - actually like a beneficent Valkyrie I was coming to your defense (well a little bit anyway) o:D ..... and the rest of what I said can't possibly get me in trouble because the truth will never harm you ..... :cat:

You did misinterpret Bruce's OP for intention (you're not Robinson Crusoe there! :) and tone, .... there was nothing even remotely terse in it (you missed the boat on that one worse than Martin and Black in the 'Big Year' ! :) :brains:

And let's face it I said "often", which is correct - you often don't need much of an excuse to post, not even relevance (though you're not quite as bad as dennis - I think quoting your own posts is the line in the sand there! :)).

You also drifted into your own take on the value equation, which was not Bruce's intent at all. Honestly for the amount of posting and writing that you do - couldn't you sell it somewhere and then just but whatever you truly wanted?! ;)

Besides I stuck up for you in the SF thread too - so don't go getting all teary-eyed on me now |=(| or ruining it - you're still on probation you know! 8-P


Chosun :gh:

PS. I've had to trim your smile count somewhat - it was impinging on my own! No offense!! :)))

PPS. I see that as regularly as the Channel-billed Cuckoo in the spring, you're next post was another opportunity to cry 'woe is me' ..... ay caramba! :))))

PPPS. I don't think Bruce has left out any flat field designs between the SV and SE / Prime HD (McKinley) level. If he can see a clear difference in the levels then obviously his OP was genuine - I don't know why he is copping so much flak for it - I've never known him to come across as this defensive and snarky before - so he's obviously taken it to heart - he was quite generous in retracting his reply post to you. Hang in there Bruce! look forward to your comparisons between SV/SF/EDG, and also HT and SLC just for good measure .... You might as well pick the best for - a few hundred more won't matter much -- my money is on a 10x42 SF just quietly ....... shhhhhhhhhh! :)))))
 
Chosun Juan said:
Don't take it personally Bruce! o:)
Brock often doesn't even need a post that bears any relevance to his reply .... just a keyboard and a blank screen to give him the opportunity to scratch his compulsive itch to write and express his own worldview!

No harm, no foul .....


Chosun
Click to expand...

3:):clap:|:D||=)|::flowers::bounce::D 8-P

PS: I promise to return your emoticons, nicely valeted and packed in the original boxes, once I have finished with them. Thank you for the loan.
 
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