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Military Habicht with Reticle...anyone like a Reticle? (1 Viewer)

Rathaus

Well-known member
New Military Habicht with Reticle...anyone like a Reticle? Worthwhile contraption?

I have a perfect late model armoured military Habicht 8x30 with Reticle and DF. The optics are stunning...no different from my non armoured CF Habicht 8x30....actually they're easier to handle due to the big rubber eyepiece.

A couple of points and questions.

Does anybody on here use a reticle bino? If not utilised very often, does that reticle become annoying...or can the brain accomodate it?

It's my only bino with a reticle. It's kind of fun and I can gauge size and distance etc.....but it's there the whole time. My IPD is slightly larger than normal which means the reticle cross hatch tilts to the left due to opening up the binos, requiring the right barrel with reticle to rotate anticlockwise. I guess they had to afix the reticle at some point. Any way around this apart from tilting my head? Something I'm overlooking?

Lastly, how can I tell if these binos have the laser filters? They're tack sharp and super bright.

Cheers

I need to figure the easy way to post photos here...
 
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Lastly, how can I tell if these binos have the laser filters? They're tack sharp and super bright.
I don't think yours have laser filters because if they did the view's color would be affected. I've had two binoculars with laser filters - a US Army Fujinon M24 7x28 which gave a strongly pink toned view and a Swiss Army Kern Leica 8x30 with a grey/green view. In both cases I removed the filters.
 
I have a few binoculars with reticles. For astronomy I find them to be a nuisance, although I put up with it.
They turn up quite often in charity shops, and also some Russian binoculars are available with them new.
 
My experience with reticles in binoculars has been limited to three (3) models: Zeiss 8x30 IF Safari (roof); Kern 8x30 IF (porro); and Celestron 8x30 IF (roof) in that order.

When Zeiss began to market the Safari in the United States, I bought one for $226 in 1974. At that time I was into all kinds of outdoor adventures, wilderness hiking, canoeing, hunting, X-Cty skiing, etc., and the Safari appeared to be the perfect binocular for me, waterproof, light weight, unbelievably rugged,(I can give personal testimony about the ability of the Safari to take abuse) and good optics.

It wasn't P coated then. That came later in 1988. I might add that P coating IMO is something like Mark Twain commenting on the report that he had died. Twain said, "The report of my death has been greatly exaggerated." I'm willing to take on the naysayers to my comments about P coating. The average bloke couldn't tell the difference or see the difference. Many high quality binoculars (roofs) have been downgraded because the magical word or letter of "P" coating doesn't appear on them. And many of those can be picked up at bargain prices.

Anyway when the Zeiss Safari 8x30 arrived, I was surprised to find it had the reticle in the left barrel. At first I was intrigued by it, but eventually it began to annoy me. It had military application, but after serving in the Marine Corps and Korea, my infatuation with being able to kill my fellow men was on the wane. So I sent it back to Zeiss to be removed. That took several months crossing the Atlantic ocean twice. When it arrived, sans reticle, Zeiss sent the reticle along in a little box. Why? I don't know. Anyone in bird forum land who wants the reticle needs to contact me, and I'll send it to him. Price? Only the postage.

Now this reticle like most is etched on flat glass, meaning that the light transmission is minutely degraded (only the most sophisticated instrument could measure this), but any very tiny speck of dust settling on the surface, will be magnified greatly and that will become very annoying for users tending to be somewhat obsessive, which includes me.

My only knock on the Safari is that the olive colored rubber deteriorates over time and resembles the face of a 70 year old woman who has smoked for 60 of those years. The Japanese clones, particularly those made by Celestron (black rubber) hold up better.

Next came the Kern 8x30 porro IF, It too had the reticle in the left barrel. This Kern model had been rendered obsolete by the newer model with lazer protection. I'm being dogmatic but anything made by the Swiss is very well made, and the Kern was no exception. The lens were made by Leica. It is the toughest porro ever made IMO. Breaking into one to remove the reticle can be a challenge, but not impossible. One must have a very, very sturdy vice and a way to pad the body to avoid damaging it.

An acquaintance made a special wrench for me which works well. The left ocular is unscrewed (counter clockwise) and the reticle housing is carefully tapped out. Great care must be made to avoid gunk going into the inside when doing this, or else something distracting may appear on the focal plane. I have removed of number of these reticles for friends. I don't charge for my services to avoid being responsible for damage which inevitably will occur if you play long enough with these objects.

The removal of the Celeston reticles is easier. An ordinary strap wrench will break the left eye piece loose, and reveal a plate holding the reticle attached by three screws. Remove those and the reticle, and your distraction ceases to exist.

I don't believe the brain accommodates the reticle so you don't see it. It is there. It reminds me of the current run of rifle scopes which I call wart hog scopes, bumps protruding all over the tubes to accommodate some special feature that may pique the imagination but in real use is illusory.

The wart hog phenomenon is sweeping the binocular industry with multi-purpose binoculars which have little practical application to the user. So what if the bird or critter is 296 yards away? Or 102 yards, or 1,020 yards?
Compasses do exist for marine application. But we will probably see GPS and the Apple watch incorporated in some binocular in the future so when the user becomes bored with looking at birds or whatever, they can check with the weather channel or the stock market or his favorite porn site. I better stop this rant.

John
 
. That is a very nice read, John.

I think that most of the reticles I've seen have been in the right eyepiece, but I have not made a particular study of this.
I think that some reticles may actually be on film negative or plastic, maybe the more complex ones, but again I'm not sure of this. I.e. they were produced by photographic processes.
 
My only other experience with anything etched on glass was with the Bausch & Lomb 2.5 to 8X rifle scope. The tapered cross hairs maintain their actual coverage area even though they grow larger (to the eye) as the power
increases. B&L touted this as some kind of advantage to the hunter. One day I foolishly unscrewed the eye piece to take a peek inside, and much to my chagrin when it was reattached found some additional "gunk" on the focal plane. To demonstrate that fools don't always stop with their initial transgression, I unscrewed the eye piece again, and blew down the tube. thinking I would get rid of new objects, but discovered I only introduced more "stuff" to help clutter the field. Because it had a life time guarantee, it was returned to B&L for cleaning. It came back clean, but I never tried that again. Experience can become a dear teacher.
 
Hello,

I have only one centre focus binocular with a reticle, graticule in the Queen's English, was custom installed on a Leitz 8x30 Binuxit. I perceive it only when focussed at, or near, infinity, so it has never been problematic. I have military glasses with reticles, which might be fun to use on hiking and orienteering. If one knows the height of a church tower, then one can compute the distance. The American ones used to have an Eames scale, just to confuse the unwary.

As I recall, WJC, aka Bill Cook, wrote that removing the reticle changes the optical train, enough to warrant adjustment of the dioptre setting. You actually have to reset the main telescope, not the one with the adjustment. I did remove the reticle from a broken down US Army M3 and packed it with an M13A1 for my optical tech to install on that binocular.

Yes, the reticles were etched with a photographic process.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur
 
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I have made plenty of mistakes and learnt from them at my cost.

In the local camera shop that I used to visit daily, I saw one of the salesman use an aerosol can to blow the dust off some fine optics. What he actually did was to propel liquid onto the lens, which took a long time to clean off. I must admit I thought it was quite funny.

On the other hand, a customer brought in a faulty and jammed Rolleiflex twin lens reflex. The technician banged the camera fairly hard in the correct spot and it was instantly repaired.

I got an Olympus OM4 TI camera with a lens for 10 quid in a charity shop. I thought it wasn't working but the camera salesman in the local shop just flicked a switch and low and behold I had a working camera.

I have even found binoculars in the charity shop where they were simply folded over the wrong way and thought not to work.

The correct knowledge is a great thing.
 
During WW II higher quality reticules were etched with acid and filled with an opaque material. But because these were costly and time consuming to make, some US and British reticules were photo-printed onto the glass. Etched reticules had the advantage of thinner and finer markings.

British, German and French reticules were in the right eyepieces while most US ones were in the left.

Removing the reticule can changes focal lengths enough to cause stagger in the individual eyepieces when focused or even make focusing on infinity impossible depending on the refractive properties of the reticule glass. On the other hand, removing a reticule sometimes seems to have no discernable effect on focal length.
 
My experience with reticles in binoculars has been limited to three (3) models: Zeiss 8x30 IF Safari (roof); Kern 8x30 IF (porro); and Celestron 8x30 IF (roof) in that order.

When Zeiss began to market the Safari in the United States, I bought one for $226 in 1974. At that time I was into all kinds of outdoor adventures, wilderness hiking, canoeing, hunting, X-Cty skiing, etc., and the Safari appeared to be the perfect binocular for me, waterproof, light weight, unbelievably rugged,(I can give personal testimony about the ability of the Safari to take abuse) and good optics.

It wasn't P coated then. That came later in 1988. I might add that P coating IMO is something like Mark Twain commenting on the report that he had died. Twain said, "The report of my death has been greatly exaggerated." I'm willing to take on the naysayers to my comments about P coating. The average bloke couldn't tell the difference or see the difference. Many high quality binoculars (roofs) have been downgraded because the magical word or letter of "P" coating doesn't appear on them. And many of those can be picked up at bargain prices.

Anyway when the Zeiss Safari 8x30 arrived, I was surprised to find it had the reticle in the left barrel. At first I was intrigued by it, but eventually it began to annoy me. It had military application, but after serving in the Marine Corps and Korea, my infatuation with being able to kill my fellow men was on the wane. So I sent it back to Zeiss to be removed. That took several months crossing the Atlantic ocean twice. When it arrived, sans reticle, Zeiss sent the reticle along in a little box. Why? I don't know. Anyone in bird forum land who wants the reticle needs to contact me, and I'll send it to him. Price? Only the postage.

Now this reticle like most is etched on flat glass, meaning that the light transmission is minutely degraded (only the most sophisticated instrument could measure this), but any very tiny speck of dust settling on the surface, will be magnified greatly and that will become very annoying for users tending to be somewhat obsessive, which includes me.

My only knock on the Safari is that the olive colored rubber deteriorates over time and resembles the face of a 70 year old woman who has smoked for 60 of those years. The Japanese clones, particularly those made by Celestron (black rubber) hold up better.

Next came the Kern 8x30 porro IF, It too had the reticle in the left barrel. This Kern model had been rendered obsolete by the newer model with lazer protection. I'm being dogmatic but anything made by the Swiss is very well made, and the Kern was no exception. The lens were made by Leica. It is the toughest porro ever made IMO. Breaking into one to remove the reticle can be a challenge, but not impossible. One must have a very, very sturdy vice and a way to pad the body to avoid damaging it.

An acquaintance made a special wrench for me which works well. The left ocular is unscrewed (counter clockwise) and the reticle housing is carefully tapped out. Great care must be made to avoid gunk going into the inside when doing this, or else something distracting may appear on the focal plane. I have removed of number of these reticles for friends. I don't charge for my services to avoid being responsible for damage which inevitably will occur if you play long enough with these objects.

The removal of the Celeston reticles is easier. An ordinary strap wrench will break the left eye piece loose, and reveal a plate holding the reticle attached by three screws. Remove those and the reticle, and your distraction ceases to exist.

I don't believe the brain accommodates the reticle so you don't see it. It is there. It reminds me of the current run of rifle scopes which I call wart hog scopes, bumps protruding all over the tubes to accommodate some special feature that may pique the imagination but in real use is illusory.

The wart hog phenomenon is sweeping the binocular industry with multi-purpose binoculars which have little practical application to the user. So what if the bird or critter is 296 yards away? Or 102 yards, or 1,020 yards?
Compasses do exist for marine application. But we will probably see GPS and the Apple watch incorporated in some binocular in the future so when the user becomes bored with looking at birds or whatever, they can check with the weather channel or the stock market or his favorite porn site. I better stop this rant.

John

That was a great read.

It did cross my mind..to possibly send them into Swarovski for reticle removal as they're nitrogen purged and I can be ham fisted....perhaps in a few years even. I wonder if Swarovski would kindly do this to an otherwise non civilian binocular? Then I would have an armour coated dual focus 8x30 Habicht.

I must say, they appear dense and heavy little things, much heavier than the stand habichts (I was under the impression the weight difference was minimal). The armour appears to be thicker and much denser than that of the fujinon equivalent. Having said that the weight is not a problem..they are only 8x30.

Re post #9 - I have tried some vintage military binos with a simple etched reticle and they had a much more subtle effect. To me, Far preferable to the sharp black reticle with its excess of data.

Cheers
 
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I snapped a rough shot of the reticle in question..through the iPad. A picture always makes a thread a bit more interesting.

Also, a photo showing the size difference....
 

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. Two great pictures, Rathaus.

I also find that fine markings on the reticle, are easier to live with than thick markings.

With micrometer eyepieces there are markings and moving spider threads, but these are for measuring the separation of double stars and are specialist eyepieces. Modern versions have variable illumination to actually see the markings at night.
I also adapted some eyepieces to have an occulting bar to mask any bright stars or planets, so that one can see a very faint nearby star, galaxy or other faint object, or a faint moon.

Some of the Marine compass binoculars, perhaps most, have illumination for the scales when needed. I find that with these binoculars you have to keep them horizontal otherwise the compass jams.
 
I think reticle could be annoying in some cases, especially stargazing(I have no experience but assume it could be some diffraction issue). For normal terrestrial use I don't think it's necessarily would be a problem.
 
. No, it's not a diffraction issue, it is just that the markings get in the way.
They have a physical size, and that they are quite likely to hide a faint star or the faint moon you are looking for. Or indeed any other unknown object that you are seeking.

At least spider thread is very thin and less likely to hide something.
Broadhurst Clarkson used to keep six spiders, common English ones, as working assistants. The optical workers used to harvest the threads and attach them to the eyepieces. As far as I know these threads can last a very long time. But I haven't looked at my micrometer eyepiece for quite a while.

I think that the old, possibly Zeiss, 6×30 that I have has a reticle that is yellowing. Although a 70-year-old Czech clone has a reticle which is as new.
 
Just an update - with a little use, that reticle and I are becoming friends. Don't get me wrong, one decent reticle bino is enough for me for now.

I haven't yet utilised any mathematical calculations for distance or height/size measurements, but (if you were quick witted mathematically) Potentially, the reticle could be utilised to determine the size/distance and approach velocity of a charging Cassowary, leaving the observer to respond accordingly.
 
Hans - You raise a legitimate question. Where did I get this information? Numerous references in Bird Forum made about the Kern 8x30 generation of IF binoculars (which I have) made for the Swiss army. My Kern was made in 1977.

From reading about my Kern, there was at least one model before it (perhaps more) and one after it. I'm aware that Switzerland has an optical industry that specializes in highly technical optics for a variety of world needs. Whether that industry made binocular prisms and lens for that generation of Kern, I do not know. My most recent search for that info has not revealed that they did nor did not.

Since you live in Switzerland, you are in a much better position to research that question than I am, and I might add, to correct misinformation my post may have made. In fact I welcome correction, since on a world wide web such as BF, repetition of opinions is one thing but repeating factual misinformation is still another.

IMO my Kern matches any 8x30 IF made in 1977. It is vastly underestimated and worth what I paid for it about 20 years ago - $150.

Regards,

John
 
Hans - You raise a legitimate question. Where did I get this information? Numerous references in Bird Forum made about the Kern 8x30 generation of IF binoculars (which I have) made for the Swiss army. My Kern was made in 1977.

From reading about my Kern, there was at least one model before it (perhaps more) and one after it. I'm aware that Switzerland has an optical industry that specializes in highly technical optics for a variety of world needs. Whether that industry made binocular prisms and lens for that generation of Kern, I do not know. My most recent search for that info has not revealed that they did nor did not.

Since you live in Switzerland, you are in a much better position to research that question than I am, and I might add, to correct misinformation my post may have made. In fact I welcome correction, since on a world wide web such as BF, repetition of opinions is one thing but repeating factual misinformation is still another.

IMO my Kern matches any 8x30 IF made in 1977. It is vastly underestimated and worth what I paid for it about 20 years ago - $150.

Regards,

John

Hallo John

Your high praise for your Kern 8x30 “Armeemodell“ (as I assume it to be, because there were rarely seen 8x30 IF civilian versions of a different design as well) I appreciate. Your invitation to comment your earlier statement I gladly accept:

As you suggest, me living about 30 kilometers off the defunct Kern facility, I regularely keep contact to some of its then employees.

Partial proof of my following statement:

http://www.kern-aarau.ch/kern-intern/geschichte.html

Kern founded 1819, was originally a producer of precision mechanics without any optical components, specially surveying instruments. When later optics, to facilitate and improve the precision of aiming and reading measurements were added, glass components were purchased from Zeiss Jena. During and after WW1 this source ended. Kern decided to build its own glass processing workshop. But aware that this application alone would create too low a volume, it was then decided to produce binoculars as a byproduct mainly to boost volume to lower costs of surveying instruments.
The timing therefore was ideal, as Zeiss Jena simultaneously also stopped to supply the Swiss Army with its products (until the creation of Nedinsco legally allowed to bypass the Versailles Treaty). So Kern could relatively smoothly take over from Zeiss Jena to supply binoculars (initially of nearly identical design) to the Swiss Army.
Kern hardly took real efforts to export their binoculars the same way as their well known surveying instruments. Even within Switzerland civilan sales got limited promotion, as most young male Swiss got used to Kern binoculars during their compulsary military service.

Regards Hans
 
Thanks Hans for your information and references. That plus reading some of the BF archive postings tells me that my statement about the Kern AARAU 8x30 IF 1977 model having Leica lens is incorrect. Hopefully, others reading my earlier post will not remember my error.


Regards.

John
 
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