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ED glass in Binoculars (1 Viewer)

Ron,

I had forgotten about the Stokes test, which actually I've never done to the FLs. I'll have to try it.

Kevin,

I don't think we'll be seeing Roman Duplov's APO designs showing up in binoculars or general purpose telescopes. Look at the details. For instance, the actual physical length of the 100mm f4.5 is over 10 times the aperture and the well corrected image area at the focal plane is tiny, less than 0.5 degrees. These are limited purpose designs. The dog may have been taught to sing, but only one note.

For those hoping to educate themselves here I should warn you that even with my limited unprofessional knowledge of optics I can see that the links provided have a very nice mixture of the true and the wayward. The internet is like being in a classroom with ten "professors" and ten "experts" talking at once, some are brilliant, some are misinformed, some know less than you do. Good luck sorting it out
 
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For those hoping to educate themselves here I should warn you that even with my limited unprofessional knowledge of optics I can see that the links provided have a very nice mixture of the true and the wayward. The internet is like being in a classroom with ten "professors" and ten "experts" talking at once, some are brilliant, some are misinformed, some know less than you do. Good luck sorting it out

So back at square one. ;)
 
Kevin,
Nope, EdZ disapproved of my raising the lateral color issue in his recent ED glass discussion at Cloudy Nights, on the grounds that lateral color is not an issue in stargazing, which is in fact true. The discussion there continues, as though longitudinal color was a big issue, and as if ED binos were APO scopes. Oh well.
Ron
 
Henry,
Of course our discussions are somewhat dirtball. But, where is a book that tells how ED glass is employed in binoculars, and with what result? It is manufacturing black art as far as I can tell. All we have is one another. Now get up to the podium and tell us what the heck is going on with this ED business!
Ron
 
Kevin,
Nope, EdZ disapproved of my raising the lateral color issue in his recent ED glass discussion at Cloudy Nights, on the grounds that lateral color is not an issue in stargazing, which is in fact true. The discussion there continues, as though longitudinal color was a big issue, and as if ED binos were APO scopes. Oh well.
Ron


Hmm, well there's a few misconceptions. But well, OK
edz
 
For those hoping to educate themselves here I should warn you that even with my limited unprofessional knowledge of optics I can see that the links provided have a very nice mixture of the true and the wayward. The internet is like being in a classroom with ten "professors" and ten "experts" talking at once, some are brilliant, some are misinformed, some know less than you do. Good luck sorting it out

You should help people sort it out, Henry. That's not a very helpful comment.

BTW, the post about the non-special APO was more to illustrate the point about Leica using "special" (possibly FK glass) but non-ED glass in their objectives (perhaps with special short flints) that can give very good performance.

So not all

I think perhaps this is easier to see the step in improvement in less expensive (i.e. Chinese EDs) bins than he incremental improvement is in more sophisticated designed bins that don't have an ED component.

It seems like non-ED doublets like FK5/SF10 (or with perhaps another more exotic short flint) can give better performance than older BK7/short flint doublets.

Of course if the bin makers actually told us what glass they used this might be a bit more transparent. If they explained their designs the same would be true.
 
Henry,
Of course our discussions are somewhat dirtball. But, where is a book that tells how ED glass is employed in binoculars, and with what result? It is manufacturing black art as far as I can tell. All we have is one another. Now get up to the podium and tell us what the heck is going on with this ED business!
Ron

"The Book" is here:
http://www.wiley-vch.de/publish/dt/...3-527-40320-5/?sID=lbe7bnl4nv180bpmoihjoke5q6


It will give you the "full picture".
There may be others from other publishing houses.
All you have to do is to find a library which has it. Or get a copy from your bookstore.

T
 
You should help people sort it out, Henry. That's not a very helpful comment.

Henry's comments were "spot on," including his masterfully written post #2. As inconvenient as it may be, aberration correction is a very complicated subject and impossible to simplify in a few sentences — that is, even assuming one knows the subject in the first place.

A book that's readily available is Warren J. Smith's Modern Optical Engineering (1990). Chapter 3 on "Aberrations," and Chapter 7 on "Optical Materials and Interference Coatings," pg. 163-183, are particularly relevant to this discussion, and helpful for those who wish to sort it out. But the sorting will take effort, and I believe some familiarity with the underlying notions of calculus, even though the author takes great pains to avoid it.

Personally, I develop real heartburn trying to follow all the professors and "experts" Henry mentioned.

(Note: The book is available from ABE for less than $20 USD.)
 
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This morning I did a couple of easy experiments with my Leica Trinovid BA, a normal glass binocular.

First I looked at a black telephone pole, with a bright sky in the background. Keeping my eyes centered behind the eyepieces, I moved the pole to the right side of the field, and yellow-green fringes appeared on the inner edge of the pole. Then, by moving my eye to the left, to recenter my eye on the now off-center exit pupil, I made the fringes disappear. By moving my eye even further to the left, occluding the other side of the exit pupil, I induced purple fringes on that same edge.

Second, with eyes centered, and left edge of pole centered, there were no fringes visible. But when I masked off the right side of an objective with my hand, purple fringes appeared, as predicted by Stokes for achromatic objectives.

I believe these tests demonstrate that much of the lateral color commonly seen in binoculars originates in the objectives, and is made visible by partial occlusion of the exit pupil due to eye placement. As part of the previous discussion, Henry Link tried Stokes's test with a Zeiss FL and got results quite different from what is expected with an achromat. I believe his result, and my results, taken with the frequently reported reduction in color aberrations in binoculars having ED glass objectives, supports the idea that ED objectives, at least when properly implemented as by Zeiss, are indeed the cat's pajamas, with regard not only to the subtle longitudinal, but also to the obvious lateral, color aberrations in binoculars.

I think as well that these tests largely exonerate the eyepieces from blame as the source of colored fringes.
Ron
Two days ago, I made a similar experiment with three binoculars on the full moon. The full moon makes the fringes more visible, and confirms the results I get in daytime.

The first binocular is the Fujinon 16x70 FMT SX2, that is known for its perceptible chromatic aberration in daytime.
When the lunar limb is centered, and the eye is perfectly centered, there is no trace of CA. But as soon as the eye moves to the right, there is a blue fringe that appears in the black sky at the left of the limb. When the eye is totally decentered, the blue fringe is very large and bright. The aspect of the fringe is very dependent on the eye position.

I agree this is a variation of the Stokes’ test.
The upper figure is an illustration of this situation. Here the eye is decentred to the top. Only the edge of the objective is used to form the image, and unfortunately, this is the worst part for chromatic aberration.

Then I put the lunar limb off axis. Again, I saw a large and bright fringe, very similar to the previous one. This situation is illustrated in the lower figure : in order to see the off-axis image, the eye must rotate in its orbit, in this causes exactly the same vignetting as previously. Again, the aspect of this fringe is very sensitive to eye placement.
In this case, what we call lateral CA seems to be due mainly to the objective.


The second binocular is the Zeiss 15x60 BGAT. When the lunar limb is on axis, moving the eyes creates a purple fringe. Compared to the Fujinon, the fringe is much fainter and narrower. Obviously, Zeiss could have been promoted extra-ED-super-APO objectives for these binoculars ;).

When the moon is off axis however, the fringe is totally different : there is a very narrow and intense red fringe, that seems to be less sensitive to eye placement. Maybe this is the true lateral CA due to the eyepiece, that is visible only because there is very few longitudinal CA.


The third binocular is the Nikon SE 12x50. On axis, the behaviour is very similar to the Fujinon 16x70 : a blue fringe sensitive to eye placement, but fainter and narrower than in the Fujinon. But compared to the purple fringe in the Zeiss, this blue fringe is more prominent. It’s quite an achievement for the Zeiss considering its higher magnification and larger objectives !

Off-axis, there is a narrow and intense red fringe, that seems almost identical to the Zeiss. Here also, I believe this could be the lateral CA due to the eyepiece.
The most interesting, is that moving the eye is this situation creates a blue fringe, wider and fainter than the red fringe, that reminds me of the blue fringe on axis. The red fringe remains visible near the limb.
My interpretation is that off axis, I can see in the same time the true lateral CA of the binocular as a rather constant red fringe, and the longitudinal CA as a variable blue fringe.


All these observations should be confirmed with my other binoculars and other experiments with a booster. I don’t consider they are definite conclusions. But basically, I agree with Ron’s comments, even if the subjet is complex.

Jean-Charles
 

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A book that's readily available is ...


"Gross, Herbert et al. (2006):
Handbook of Optical Systems
Volume 3: Aberration Theory and Correction of Optical Systems
Optical Systems (vol 3)

756 pages, Hardcover
ISBN-10: 3-527-40379-5
ISBN-13: 978-3-527-40379-0

Written by industrial experts, this six-volume, full-color handbook provides a comprehensive introduction to the calculation, layout and understanding of optical systems, combining for the first time theoretical aspects of optical modeling with practical optical design.

Vol.3: Aberration Theory and Correction of Optical Systems:

29 Aberrations
30 Image Quality Criteria
31 Correction of Aberrations
32 Principles of Optimization
33 Optimization Process
34 Special Correction Features
35 Tolerancing "
 
Jean-Claude,
Thank you for doing the tests and reporting. I agree that the red fringes, which are characteristic of primary, rather than secondary color, do not arise in the objectives.

If all three of your binoculars were of the same design and quality, and the same objective focal ratio, I would expect the biggest, the 70mm, to be the worst, and the smallest, the 50mm, to be the best, as far as objective-induced color. That is the way achromats work. They need to get slower as they get bigger, but in binoculars they usually don't. The 60mm Zeiss beating the 70mm is not surprising, but beating the 50mm shows its very high quality.
Ron

Tom and Ed,
Indeed there is much to be learned. We really ought to knuckle down with some serious booking.how come none of these guys frequent our bino forum?
Ron
 
The second binocular is the Zeiss 15x60 BGAT. When the lunar limb is on axis, moving the eyes creates a purple fringe. Compared to the Fujinon, the fringe is much fainter and narrower. Obviously, Zeiss could have been promoted extra-ED-super-APO objectives for these binoculars ;).

As an aside: The Zeiss West 10x50 introduced in 1957 had what Zeiss called "semi-apochromatic" objective lenses. Somewhere in the old literature there's even some reference to the glasses they used, and the reduction of the secondary spectrum is quite visible when you compare it to other 10x50s made at the time.

Hermann
 
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