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Norfolk birding (36 Viewers)

Probably the worst day for a while to post this, but this morning there has been a Lesser White Fronted Goose hanging around with the Taiga Bean Geese at Buckenham Marshes RSPB. How genuine it is, who knows, but seems to be with 'wild geese' rather than the Barnacles/greylags that frequent the area. Any thoughts? Is this a well known location for a returning escaped LWFG? It was unringed and fully winged, some poor shots on my blog
 
ben_lewis said:
Probably the worst day for a while to post this, but this morning there has been a Lesser White Fronted Goose hanging around with the Taiga Bean Geese at Buckenham Marshes RSPB. How genuine it is, who knows, but seems to be with 'wild geese' rather than the Barnacles/greylags that frequent the area. Any thoughts? Is this a well known location for a returning escaped LWFG? It was unringed and fully winged, some poor shots on my blog
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There have been escapee LWFG at Buckenham before, but playing devil's advocate, most of Norfolk's accepted Lesser White-fronted Goose reports are from...Buckenham. LWFG and Taiga Bean both occur in Fennoscandia, so Taiga Bean would be a realistic carrier flock. I noticed from your blog you counted 99 Bean Geese, so presumably there has been a recent arrival (40ish in November?).

I don't think that anyone will be able to prove where the bird came from, but if it stays until the end of the week I may go and have a look ;)
 
James Emerson said:
There have been escapee LWFG at Buckenham before, but playing devil's advocate, most of Norfolk's accepted Lesser White-fronted Goose reports are from...Buckenham. LWFG and Taiga Bean both occur in Fennoscandia, so Taiga Bean would be a realistic carrier flock. I noticed from your blog you counted 99 Bean Geese, so presumably there has been a recent arrival (40ish in November?).

I don't think that anyone will be able to prove where the bird came from, but if it stays until the end of the week I may go and have a look ;)
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Perhaps we should wait for tideliner (mr goose) to to inform us on the birds status!
 
Am off to North Norfolk early tomorrow morning. apart from those mentioned below, anything else about that I have not caught up with?
shore lark: Holkham and Titchwell
Northern harrier: Thornham to Titchwell
glaucous gull: Arnolds to Salthouse beach car park
snow bunting: North bank, Cley
Rough Legged buzz: Holme.

Anything around Choseley Drying barns? Planning on arriving at Cley before first light and then working our way along the coast, finishing at Titchwell or Snettisham, depending on light and weather.

Thanks for any help and suggesstions.
best regards,
Jono
 
black kite 1964 said:
Perhaps we should wait for tideliner (mr goose) to to inform us on the birds status!
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Obviously the problem here is that wildfowl sightings are not 'black and white' (except for the Barnacleso:)) and that some refer to wild birds and others to escapes!! (talk about stating the obvious). Interesting, though that three experienced goose watchers can have such differeing experiences (great to see you on here Andy, your knowledge and experience will be greatly received). I think it is easy to dismiss these birds as being escapes - as with a lot of species, we all know (?!?) the variety of birds that are kept in captivity (Siberian Thrush anyone!!) - but then again they shouldn't be accepted without thought, either!

Ben, I too would be interested in the LWfG, where exactly was it when you came across it with the Beans, and what is the best access point?

PS tideliner, shame you weren't able to instigate a ringing program whilst you were at Pensthorpe - I never understand why proprieters of places such as these do not want to keep better tabs on their 'comodities' (remember the mass escape of Cattle Egrets - that casued some fun)!
 
As you say James, its credentials could be good with the increased numbers of Beans and Whitefronts, but with LWFG you can never be sure. I was just wondering if anyone else has seen the bird, or any other LWF in the area?
7 species of goose present at Buckenham/Cantley this morning, rarely see that anywhere.

David, the Lwf and Beans were in the NE corner of Buckenham at 9.30 this morning but soon moved on to Cantley. Best viewed from the footpath encircling Buck/Cant river bank (from Buckenham Station) the light is much better in the morrning's from here although it is a 3 mile walk.
 
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The LWFG could be real , but there is a reintroduction project in Northern Sweden in the same area where the Tiga beans breed. Alas when I was over there a few years ago I never saw any while I was working in Jamtland on the European- African Songbird project , despite several experditions further north . Unbelevably the main goose i saw were canadas by the dozen on almost every lake.

As it is reported to have no rings it could be an offspring of the released birds. But also if ever there was a winter for a wild bird to turn up this the one. Anyone seen many European Whitefronts that a wild LWFG is likley to have come over with ? I know there a few ( 100 + ) in the county , but not as many as might be expected following all the cold weather.
 
Pink-feet are the 'regular' Goose species in my little corner of the county but there were 10 Eurasian White-fronts associating with c.2,500 Pinks not a million miles away from here at the weekend. No LWfG though, but I haven't given up yet...

James
 
David , I did a lot of wild waterfowl ringing while I was there , about 12,000 ducks , geese and swans and most of the captive birds were ringed. The trouble was we could not always catch find the nests or catch the youngsters of the tame birds on the big lakes. Many that i did catch in the duck traps were taken back into captivity , but there was a policy of having some free winged birds too ( not my idea ). At one time there were almost 50 free winged Red crested pochard , a dozen barrows goldeneye plus some smew , ruddy shielduck and long tailed duck. One ringed captive bred long tailed duck visited Titchwell on occasion and some birdwatchers were amazed when it came up to a whistle and fed on brown bread!

But there were a lot more escaped waterfowl that came in from elsewhere. As we had large numbers of various waterfowl they would attract quite a few wanders from other collections and these would stay with their new mates. Over the years i caught quite a few chlioe wigeon , ringed teal , bahama pintail and even a canvasback in the duck traps that had come in from elsewhere. I was in two minds about ringing and releasing the canvasback as at that time they were not on the UK list, But i was glad I took it into captivity as within hours it settled down and was eating dry pellets from a tray so there was no doubt it was an escape.

I must add the captive birds were colour ringed and not with BTO rings. The mass escape of Cattle Egrets was after my time there.

It is also worth remembering wildness may not mean the bird is realy wild. There has been a domestic goose at Wells until this year that at the very sight of anyone leaving the sea wall fled back to its flock in the allotments and yet the Yare valley wigeon can be very tame in the reserves.
 
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There has been a Lesser White-fronted Goose-type in the Yare Valley for at least a month now - Barry Jarvis reported it before he went away on a long trip. He seemed to suggest that it was not 'pure' but was not questioned further as 1-2 known escapes have survived in East Norfolk for a very long time, often spending the summer months at Hardley Flood. I would suspect that this is the same bird now just joined up with the wintering flock of Taiga Bean Geese.
 
Deciding on a "tickable" LWFG these days is very much a matter of what you think counts as "reasonable doubt". Yes, there are a handful kicking around Norfolk all year (and one I looked closely a few years ago at Rockland was, I felt, probably a hybrid WFG x LWFG). There are a number of reintroduction schemes in Fennoscandia, one of which is aiming to set up a new (or not, depending on your viewpoint) flyway to NW Europe. Numbers are increasing in this population. Any "wild" LWFG appearing in the UK in winter would stand a good chance of being one of these birds I would have thought, although clearly a "real" one from further east is not impossible. But how would you ever know for sure, short of ringing evidence or isotope analysis? You wouldn't. So a purist probably can't add LWFG to their list now, whilst most of us mortals would just go for something that "feels good". Personally, after a neck-collared bird at Slimbridge in 1990 and one that wintered at Chew Valley in 91/92, I finally allowed myself another at Slimbridge in 1995. I also fancied the chances of a bird at Holkham in 1997. But who knows?

Cheers

Andy

P.S. Thanks for the welcome David. I do wander onto here from time to time - a BirdForum tourist more than a resident though...
 
Tideliner said:
The Ross with a blue plastic ring had nothing to do with Pensthorpe (...)
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It may be a complete coincidence, but I remember a Ross's Goose with a blue ring in the Netherlands (where at least some of the birds [not that one!] are considered wild).
Tideliner said:
There was a project in Holland back in the 1990s ( I am not sure if it is still going ) where captive bred eggs were being placed in barnacle goose nests in Sweden and I suspect that is the most likely origin of many of the birds rather than from the wild Russian population.
Click to expand...
You are mistaken with Lesser White-fronted Geese: the entire population wintering in the Netherlands must stem from this reintroduction.
I am convinced there has never been any such project with Red-breasted Geese (and I would accept any Red-breasted Goose arriving with Brents as wild unless proven otherwise).
 
Xeonsiza ,first i am not mistaken with LWFGs . If you read again my post I am saying almost the same as you that most come from the Swedish introduction project. However for the past 70 years LWFGs have been seen in the UK and it is very likely that the early records from Slimbridge and Linconshire were real birds as LWFG were very rare at that time in captivity and they would have been likely to have travelled across Holland on the way here with EWFG. So there is always the possibility that odd real LWFGs are turning up in Holland.
Second I can assure you there was a project in Holland to introduce red brested geese into Sweden. I studied the project while at university. At that time there were very real fears that Red breasts would go extinct in their Russian population and the idea was to produce a feral population that could be protected right along its flyway.

Not that the dutch farmers will be very happy as they are already over run with geese in the winter. Over the past couple of years the govenment have been funding a project that gasses large numbers of geese to reduce their numbers as hunting wild geese is only allowed in exceptional conditions there is no other method of controling the population.

A quote form this link http://www.thepetitionsite.com/18/stop-killing-geese-in-the-netherlands/

Update; June 2009
The massacre of Geese as described in this petition, took place last year 2008 and in spite of all the protests, the people responsible for the massacre turned a blind eye and deaf ear to all the protests from last year and again gave permission for the whole province of Utrecht to catch and gas thousands of Geese again starting June 20th thru Oct. 1st. 2009

These are not just Feral geese , but also include wild populations of Greylag and barnacle plus small numbers of other migrant species.
 
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There has been a hybrid LWFG in the Yare Valley for a couple of months now, the bird I saw yesterday appears to be far purer, and not that individual, not that you can tell from the photos. It could well be one of the known escapes in the area, but probably worth flagging up anyway. It has been mega'd on the pager now so someone must be confident its genuine, I guess a wary Lesser with Bean and Whitefronts is about as tickable as they come these days especially when looking at theabove comments about the problems we face with freeflying escapes.
 
Tideliner said:
Second I can assure you there was a project in Holland to introduce red brested geese into Sweden. I studied the project while at university. At that time there were very real fears that Red breasts would go extinct in their Russian population and the idea was to produce a feral population that could be protected right along its flyway.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/18/stop-killing-geese-in-the-netherlands/

Tideliner, would it be pertinent to embelish this with further details of the r.b.g. dutch project that you studied and any possible results or observations from neck collared, ring or wing tagged birds ( eg. who or which organisation managed the project under licence). Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
ben_lewis said:
There has been a hybrid LWFG in the Yare Valley for a couple of months now, the bird I saw yesterday appears to be far purer, and not that individual, not that you can tell from the photos. It could well be one of the known escapes in the area, but probably worth flagging up anyway. It has been mega'd on the pager now so someone must be confident its genuine, I guess a wary Lesser with Bean and Whitefronts is about as tickable as they come these days especially when looking at theabove comments about the problems we face with freeflying escapes.
Click to expand...

I am glad you had a good look yesterday & I think its up to the indaviduals if they tick it or not & not down to 1 persons say if its tickable or not
 
Pyrtle , It was a long time ago when i was at the UEA and cant remember all the details off the top of my head. I will try and hunt up my notes when i get time , they must be somewhere in the spare room in among hundreds of files. Meanwhile i am in the middle of a major woodland report that has deadlines which i am going to miss as it is .
 
Tideliner said:
Pyrtle , It was a long time ago when i was at the UEA and cant remember all the details off the top of my head. I will try and hunt up my notes when i get time , they must be somewhere in the spare room in among hundreds of files. Meanwhile i am in the middle of a major woodland report that has deadlines which i am going to miss as it is .
Click to expand...

Thanks Tideliner, very much appreciated, atb. Pat
 

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