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Swift ID Whitburn Co.Durham (1 Viewer)

Almost certainly to get the aerofoil shape - yes.

Must be just me, but I struggled with the Crosby bird. It was easy enough to pick up on as being pale.... but proving it was quite hard on account of shredded primaries. It was nicely broad hipped, but it was flying more like a Common.

Spring or autumn, I still think you'd not want any contradictory features to claim one - or a good explanation as to why they are there...such as missing primary tips in that bird's case
 
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I assume BBRC are going to have to bin most of the autumn Pallids..and then take a long hard look at the Spring ones. I think quite a few of the well-photographed spring birds should (hopefully..) survive the cull. Which one did you see?!

cheers, a
 
Almost certainly to get the aerofoil shape - yes.

Must be just me, but I struggled with the Crosby bird. It was easy enough to pick up on as being pale.... but proving it was quite hard on account of shredded primaries. It was nicely broad hipped, but it was flying more like a Common.

Spring or autumn, I still think you'd not want any contradictory features to claim one - or a good explanation as to why they are there...such as missing primary tips in that bird's case

Without doubt the feature that attracted my attention initially with the Crosby bird was its paleness.Head on, the dark eye area really stood out and the inner part of the upperwing was very pale, the greater covert tips being particularly pale.I saw that bird almost daily during its long stay and I can honestly say that I could not discern any real difference in its flight action to that of the Common Swifts alongside. Interestingly when I would meet birders lined up against the fence looking for the bird over Seaforth NR, and often during the afternoon when the Swifts were high up and then silhouetted, they were invariably struggling to pick it up.The rather frayed tips to the right wing-tip were actually a good feature given those views!
The two Pallids I saw together at Flamborough back in Oct/Nov `99 were really pale birds, far more so than the bird/s in question recently.
I`m sure Alan is correct in thinking that a review of records, especially Autumn ones, may be in order.View attachment 355019

View attachment 355020
 
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I've only heard them at Beijing airport and I recall they were close to apus. Worth a xeno-canto check?

a

Not on xeno-canto. Anyway just a thought as they "look" as good a species as Pallid is.

My first impression of the putative Pallid discussed here was that its a juv. Common or an eastern one. However, the more I look the more in doubt I am!

Luckily I can stick to my local breeding Pallids, that very rarely occur in November here in southern Portugal. There have been 2 notable records though, one of c. 100 birds in central Portugal on 02.11.2003 and c.50 near Lisbon on 30.10.1994. The only other November records I can find are 2 records of singles.
 
Interestingly when I would meet birders lined up against the fence looking for the bird over Seaforth NR, and often during the afternoon when the Swifts were high up and then silhouetted, they were invariably struggling to pick it up.The rather frayed tips to the right wing-tip were actually a good feature given those views!

You know Pete.. I was quite shocked by my inability to pick that bird up overhead (till I twigged that its primaries were shredded). I'd not long come back from Andalusia where I was feeling really confident on nailing swifts within a few seconds.

When I first saw it,I had it to myself over the playground (where I'd parked the kids) and it took be a good 10 minutes to be sure I was on the right bird (as opposed to just a pale swift)
 
The balance of opinion seems to indicate Common Swift which I think is correct. I first saw what must be the same bird at Chourdon Point (15 minutes as the swift flies from Whitburn) on 15th October after rain and SE winds (I also found 2 YB Warblers at the same site that day) It showed all the same features as the Whitburn bird - very white throat, overall dark plumage, sharp-shaped wings ending with long primaries, narrow hips
Obviously when I found a swift in mid-October with a white throat I was expecting Pallid, but as it flew around for about 5-10 minutes I could only see it as a juvenile Common Swift. It then headed north (I posted news on DBC website but it attracted no interest).
I was surprised to see what must be the same bird again at Chourdon Point/Hawthorn Quarry on Sunday 30th. This time I watched it for much longer, 20-30 minutes and got much better views. I could see the white patterning on the underwing coverts and the head pattern extremely well, white throat again, overall dark body, narrow hips. It flew directly over my head several times. Its flight for me was just typical Common Swift - fast and twisting and turning frequently. In silhouette, it just looked like any other Common Swift.
Adam admits he has no experience of Pallid Swift, but I do. As recently as late August I watched 2 or 3 dozen in southern Portugal (I was trying to add Common Swift to the trip list, but never saw any) Close Pallids are dead easy - different shape and structure, pale brown, clear scaling, distinct head and throat pattern, the call is lower in tone, and the flight is slower, more deliberate and less twisting and turning. Admittedly, more distant birds were more difficult and I had to wait for them to get closer before eliminating Common.
I would like this to be a Pallid - I need it for my Durham list - but nothing about this bird indicated to me that it was a Pallid. If it had turned up in July, it would not have been given a second look.
I noticed it was not at Whitburn today - it may have gone back to Chourdon (its spent over 2 weeks there) so those looking for it might be better off there.
 
Also interesting that the Birdguides 'Review of the Week' today states it as a Pallid, avoiding the 'probable' tag of those at Filey and Winterton... Any trump cards still to declare Alan? ;)

Birdguides often do this. Remember the Great Snipe that turned up at Rainton Meadows earlier this year. That was on the Birdguides weekly review. That won't get accepted either
 
Having pondered long and hard, I'm still in the Common Swift camp. Attached is a comparison of belly scaling between the Whitburn bird and one on Fuerteventura (which would be of race brehmorum). To me, the belly scaling of the Pallid shows the pattern talked about about earlier - paler base, darker subterminal band and pale fringe. The Whitburn bird doesn't show that to me - just pale tips (although difficult to be 100% sure with the clarity of the photo). Wing shape/structure more for Common Swift too after looking at Jane's comparisons.

Mark
 

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Interesting.

Probably a very obvious point - seems that many/most passerines (and at least some non-passerines too if you include swifts) of regular british/european breeding species which occur very late (ie October/November) are likely to be from the east of the range ... ? Eg. Redstarts, Lesser Whitethroats, Willow Warblers etc etc. (Probably Whinchats and Great Reed Warblers etc too!) Presumably mostly because of the distance they've had to travel ... More likely to be 1st winters too?

So it stands to reason that people may have been misled by the assumption that a late swift sp. is more (or equally) likely to be a Pallid (because they breed later than Common Swifts, in europe at least.) Don't see why swifts would be that much different to other passerines in this respect ... (Of course some Pallid Swifts probably do wander 'the wrong way' post breeding - and hence more likely to be picked up given the absence of the resident population).

It would be interesting to work out how the proportions of common(ish) passerines which are fairly reliably identifiable to race changes as the lateness of the season progresses ... (actually it's probably been done already...)
 
Birdguides often do this. Remember the Great Snipe that turned up at Rainton Meadows earlier this year. That was on the Birdguides weekly review. That won't get accepted either

Apologies for going momentarily off topic but I'm beginning to think maybe all those pagers exert some form of mind control. The Great Snipe at Rainton Meadows was reported on both Birdguides and RBA at similar times as an uncorroborated report or 'one reported'. It was missed from the headline section of the weekly review in which only the Norfolk Great Snipe was highlighted and included in the body section again using the 'reported' terminology (because it had been reported as a single observer sighting).

In relation to this swift both information services (and presumably Birdnet too) reported it as Pallid on the day it was seen based on the information that was available at the time. Neither this or the snipe may get accepted (if they are actually submitted at all) but it is not the place of either RBA or Birdguides to pre-judge what will and won't get accepted, they can only report the news based on what they have available to them at the time.
 
To me, the belly scaling of the Pallid shows the pattern talked about about earlier - paler base, darker subterminal band and pale fringe. The Whitburn bird doesn't show that to me - just pale tips (although difficult to be 100% sure with the clarity of the photo).

Mark

That's several pics on this thread now showing a consistent pattern on Pallids of:

<<paler base, darker subterminal band and pale fringe>>

But take your crop of the Whitburn bird above and re-posted below- to my eye the pale areas are much longer and blockier than the pale fringes on the Pallid pics, look much more like the pale bases on the known Pallids

if you take the known Pallids <<paler base, darker subterminal band and pale fringe>> and remove (wear away) the pale fringe, don't you get something looking like for example Whitburn <<paler base, darker [was sub]terminal band, no fringe>>

consistent with that, the shape of the pale areas on Whitburn look to me like they are overlapped from the left by the darker areas

I've no comment on the ID of the Whitburn bird based on other features - just intrigued by the puzzle of the pattern and wondering whether actually both spp. of swift have it (as you might expect with two very closely related species), just more strongly in Pallid
 

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So are Autumn Swifts Identifiable?

This is a topic which really interests me, as having been confronted with a late scaly swift in the past, I know how difficult it can be to judge the various criteria associated with their ID.

One of the problems I encountered when researching my own swift a few years back was that over the years, a level of contradiction seems to have crept in to literature in regards to what actually separates Pallid and Common swift in the field.

I do not have the Lewington article to hand right now, but I seem to recall it saying that Juv. common swifts are "blacker" than adults. Other articles since seem to say that they are actually "paler". Ross's article goes some way towards tackling the perception of ground colour in swifts, but personally I think any attempt to apply a colour scale to these birds is probably pointless. Light conditions across the potential range of vagrancy are simply subject to too much variation.

The "original" criteria of heavy set body and hips and blunter, thicker wings of Pallid swift, may well hold true, however I have seen plenty of shots out there where Pallid looks quite slim and sleek and sharp and thin winged.
A birds posture will morph from second to second, so I personally think this is also of limited use. Recent articles suggest that the degree of overlap in terms of wing structure is significant.

The pattern of the belly feathering should be straightforward, however I have seen plenty of shots of what presumably (assuming correct ID in the first place) are Pallid swifts, where the 3 stage pattern to the feathers are not visible. (Maybe that pattern is there and not resolved enough in the shots...or maybe it is not present at all). Does that final pale fringe wear away quickly on some birds?

I think one of the best descriptions I read in one of the older articles, was the use of the word "cuttlefish" for these birds.

They change their appearance from second to second at such speed, that even good quality photographs seem to cause confusion. Which puts observers in a real bind. All the time I see people saying "These are much easier in the field than in photographs".......When has that ever been considered OK by the wider birding populace? We are just asking for trouble with that scenario.

With my own bird, I always said that the shots never mirrored the bird in life. When that bird came over us first, the striking waved, marbled, scaled appearance was mind blowing, and the sandiness of the plumage seemed such a banker for Pallid. The pale throat was huge and blended into the head and body. No sharp demarcation at all. And that eye mask....It just popped out at you!

By the time we got a camera onto the bird, both the bird and the light were at such an angle, that shadows were constantly being played down the body of the bird. In some shots produced you would swear the bird had no pale throat even. So a camera can all too easily put an observer in the un-enviable position of saying "Well it looked much better in the field".

Owen
 
Perhaps you ladies and gents could shed some light on this:

As far as I can understand the latter Chiffchaff's we get on the East Coast have a different contact call. I had such a bird on 31 of October this year at Whitburn Costal Park. Days before the Swift was seen. I take it these Chiff's with different contact calls are highly likley to have more of an Eastern origin?

The call was nearly exactly the same as the recording of P.c. collybita call by Mike Hodgson here: http://www.ntbc.org.uk/siberian chiffchaffs.html
 
Just be glad you don't face the range of 'black' swifts we have out here! I've searched through lots of swifts out here, looking for pallid and have never found anything to convince me completely, but I've seen enough variation to also think the chance of anything but an absolutely typical sandy coloured, highly mottled individual virtually stopped overhead in low light will be impossible to be certain of. Having regularly seen fairly distinctive pallid when I lived in Portugal, and then seen very much harder pallid whilst living in Lebanon, I really don't think anything but the most typical individuals can possibly be identified with certainty, out of their normal range. (And here we'd struggle with a Nyanza in that case too!) And I don't think those 'typical' ones really are typical at all, they're just what a lot of us will be familiar with from the western Med - a point already made above.

In this case, the bird above wouldn't stick out in a flock of apus around here, looking very like lots of the birds I'm seeing at the moment. But as I hope is clear from the above, that's not to say it isn't pallid, but I'd never call it here unless pallid is actually a common visitor - which I doubt.
 
Hi Ed..

Look at the pic I posted above, (here reversed the bird so you can more or less compare feather for feather) and indicated the angle of the sun. Feathers are not flat, in strong sunlight lit from the front of the bird the rear edge of the feathers will be in shadow (and look darker).

Turn the bird round are the effect is less marked.

PS you can also on a more macro scale that the vent of the bird is paler than the belly, regardless of the direction of the sun -a contra-Pallid character.
 

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All the time I see people saying "These are much easier in the field than in photographs**".......When has that ever been considered OK by the wider birding populace? We are just asking for trouble with that scenario.


You need to add (**in a non-vagrant context) to that statement
 
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