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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

It's all just for fun, I think. (1 Viewer)

Most humans would agree that the 5303 Angstrom Iron line is green, but there is absolutely no way on earth to compare what that looks like to to you, with what it looks like any other human.

A spill of antifreeze on I-5 near Bellingham caused some people to call KOMO Radio in Seattle to report the Green liquid; others called to report the Yellow liquid. So, who among us is smart enough to draw the line that separates Yellow from Green? Some choose .580 micros. I choose .546 microns. Who's right? I am, of course . . . just ask me . . . I'll tell ya. Yeah, right! :eek!:

Bill
 
For me, when she's wrong, she's wrong. I wonder if that's why I've never been married? :-O

When Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. 'Spoken as one with nearly 37 years toward eternity.

Bill

PS What is 40 feet long, has 38 legs, and 12 teeth?
 
So if on person has 20/20 vision and another 20/10, can the person with 20/10 vision see a difference in resolution between two binoculars that have an actual quantifiable difference in resolution, whereas the person with 20/20 vision cannot ? Or, do they both see the difference ?
 
So if on person has 20/20 vision and another 20/10, can the person with 20/10 vision see a difference in resolution between two binoculars that have an actual quantifiable difference in resolution, whereas the person with 20/20 vision cannot ? Or, do they both see the difference ?

Is the deficit an extreme refractive error, or some sort of retinopathy, or a lens or corneal defect?
 
My left eye is 20/20 myopic and right eye is 20/15+ I had a pair of Pentax 20x60 PCF WPII binocular that the right side was soft, if it had been the left side I could of lived with it.
 
I'm asking because I've been told that even though I have excellent vision with glasses, there is no way I can judge binocular resolution unless I have 20/15 vision. I have no problem seeing significant differences in resolution between different models.
 
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So if on person has 20/20 vision and another 20/10, can the person with 20/10 vision see a difference in resolution between two binoculars that have an actual quantifiable difference in resolution, whereas the person with 20/20 vision cannot ? Or, do they both see the difference ?

20/20 acuity is 120 arcseconds, 20/10 is 60". Magnify that with a binocular 8 times and the maximum detail you can see is 120/8= 15" or 60/8= 7.5". So on paper it doesn't matter how good the binocular is you can't discern more detail than those limits, though worse is certainly possible. Of course that does depend on how accurate your eye test was. I know over here the big chains don't bother to test for better than 20/15 and one place I went to stopped on the 20/20 line (I never went back!). The lab results are normally for individual eyes and two eyes usually gives a slightly better result. Of course we are metric over here but I'll stick with the imperial equivalent.

Binoculars do vary in quality but anything mid range or better will comply with an international standard. For a 42mm objective that will be 5.7" resolution. That sounds better than the 7.5" for 20/10 vision but it's pretty meaningless comparison in practice. All the models over about £250 I've tested reach this standard, and although there are cherry examples, the alphas do not use a higher standard than the others (my two best results are Chinese). 5.7" is significantly worse than the diffraction limit of 2.8 arcseconds so there is resolution loss. What matters is where that occurs in the lens. When the light is bright enough for optimum acuity the pupil of the eye means we only see the image from the middle 20mm of the lens (for an 8x) and it's the optical accuracy of this area that is critical to the user. The diffraction limit is 5.8" for 20mm. I've been suggesting for quite a while that the 20mm resolution is what we should take note of. You could call it effective resolution.

The best pairs I've tested are pretty much "perfect" when stopped down to 20mm giving me a value of around 6", but a significant number are worse with 10.5" being my poorest result for a "high quality" binocular. I strongly suspect that a popular well known model is actually worse than that but I haven't tested it yet to confirm it.

It's this range of 6" to 10.5" that you need to compare to the magnified acuities I mentioned at the start. Someone with 20/10 or 7.5" magnified acuity would readily tell the difference in detail between a 6" and a 10.5" whereas 20/20 with 15" would see the same level of detail, as would 20/15 with 12.5" because they are eyesight limited.

I've only addressed resolution, and sharpness perception is more complex with colour and particularly contrast being involved. Even though the 6 models I've found so far with ~6" centre resolutions show the same level of detail to my eyes they do differ in contrast. Some might argue the higher contrast ones were sharper. I should point out that 12.5" result was for a binocular I owned for a while and I'd rate the contrast as very good. A number of people, including a binocular service engineer, commented on how sharp it was, but to my eyes it was soft. Same binocular, different visual acuities, and different perceptions of sharpness.

I have found some examples of Chinese made binoculars sharper to my eyes than some examples from Swarovski, Zeiss and Leica, but others, particularly with different acuity to me using the same samples may have a different answer.

David
 
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Just to add a foot note to the above. I know my visual acuity at different light levels and at a point where my acuity is 20/15 I cannot discriminate on apparent resolution, (what I call sharpness) between my 'high quality' models whereas I can can when the light is better. When it's dark enough that my acuity is only 20/20 even my £20 pair looks sharp, though admittedly the contrast is pretty miserable.

David
 
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The Minox Porro, to my eyes anyway, are as sharp or sharper than an SV and quite a bit sharper than the Kowa Genesis, and Nikon SE. Pier sees a remarkable level of resolution with them also best I can tell with the translation. http://www.binomania.it/347/ What do you make of his thoughts.


20/20 acuity is 120 arcseconds, 20/10 is 60". Magnify that with a binocular 8 times and the maximum detail you can see is 120/8= 15" or 60/8= 7.5". So on paper it doesn't matter how good the binocular is you can't discern more detail than those limits, though worse is certainly possible. Of course that does depend on how accurate your eye test was. I know over here the big chains don't bother to test for better than 20/15 and one place I went to stopped on the 20/20 line (I never went back!). The lab results are normally for individual eyes and two eyes usually gives a slightly better result. Of course we are metric over here but I'll stick with the imperial equivalent.

Binoculars do vary in quality but anything mid range or better will comply with an international standard. For a 42mm objective that will be 5.7" resolution. That sounds better than the 7.5" for 20/10 vision but it's pretty meaningless comparison in practice. All the models over about £250 I've tested reach this standard, and although there are cherry examples, the alphas do not use a higher standard than the others (my two best results are Chinese). 5.7" is significantly worse than the diffraction limit of 2.8 arcseconds so there is resolution loss. What matters is where that occurs in the lens. When the light is bright enough for optimum acuity the pupil of the eye means we only see the image from the middle 20mm of the lens (for an 8x) and it's the optical accuracy of this area that is critical to the user. The diffraction limit is 5.8" for 20mm. I've been suggesting for quite a while that the 20mm resolution is what we should take note of. You could call it effective resolution.

The best pairs I've tested are pretty much "perfect" when stopped down to 20mm giving me a value of around 6", but a significant number are worse with 10.5" being my poorest result for a "high quality" binocular. I strongly suspect that a popular well known model is actually worse than that but I haven't tested it yet to confirm it.

It's this range of 6" to 10.5" that you need to compare to the magnified acuities I mentioned at the start. Someone with 20/10 or 7.5" magnified acuity would readily tell the difference in detail between a 6" and a 10.5" whereas 20/20 with 15" would see the same level of detail, as would 20/15 with 12.5" because they are eyesight limited.

I've only addressed resolution, and sharpness perception is more complex with colour and particularly contrast being involved. Even though the 6 models I've found so far with ~6" centre resolutions show the same level of detail to my eyes they do differ in contrast. Some might argue the higher contrast ones were sharper. I should point out that 12.5" result was for a binocular I owned for a while and I'd rate the contrast as very good. A number of people, including a binocular service engineer, commented on how sharp it was, but to my eyes it was soft. Same binocular, different visual acuities, and different perceptions of sharpness.

I have found some examples of Chinese made binoculars sharper to my eyes than some examples from Swarovski, Zeiss and Leica, but others, particularly with different acuity to me using the same samples may have a different answer.

David
 
Bruce,

I've only seen the Opticron HRWP cousin of the Minox and I'm quite happy to accept Pier's description that it is "incredibly sharp", but I would also absolutely agree when he says that the Kowa is an "exemplary" binocular with "outstanding optical performance". I've tried 7 sample of the Genesis and in my opinion all had resolutions beyond the limit of human vision. I see no conceivable way that the Minox/Opticron could be "quite a bit sharper" than any of those I've tried, specially a user with 20/15 acuity. Perhaps your use of 'sharpness' has nothing to do with resolution?

David
 
Perhaps so. Whatever it is, contrast related maybe, I see more detail with them. I am not technically equipped to argue that point with you. I saw more detail with the Minox than the Kowa, but I can't tell you why.

Bruce,

Perhaps your use of 'sharpness' has nothing to do with resolution?

David
 
The Porter reviews have been mystifying the forum members here for years. I've not seen several of the binoculars in that 2008 round-up and they only score "optical quality" not "resolution" so we don't know exactly what they mean. I do find the Kowa's lowly position strange as it's CA, colour neutrality, depth of contrast and, I would suggest, effective resolution is better than the FL or the Ultravid.

Things get more extraordinary when you move on to their 2012 test where they claim to do boosted resolution tests. http://birdwatching.com/optics/2012highendbins/chart_2012.html

Just look at the resolution score for the Opticron Aurora. Unusually there is a minimum resolution standard published for that binocular of 4 arcseconds. That is better than the 5.7" that Zeiss and Swarovski use yet the team was unable to 'see' it. In fact everything on that list apart from the Opticron would have thet 5.7" standard. Doesn't mean there there wouldn't be some variation between the models but it defies the laws of probability that the alpha models happen to be top in the test. There have been endless analysis on the forum that mostly conclude the results are a nonsense and speculate why, so I'll stop there.

Bruce, I'm not dismissing that you see a detail difference (well not totally anyway ;) ) It's not down to resolution differences and from what I've seen of the Opticron version and the Kowas not strictly contrast either. I'm not really convinced of this but there may be an aspect at play which might best be explained by comparisons with photography. If you are old enough to have used black and white film I'm sure you will know the difference between the high resolution Ilford Pan-F 50 and the high speed films, particularly when cooked for even higher ISO. You could trade detail for contrast and make low definition objects more distinct. This has carried over into the setting on digital cameras though the actual "sharpness" setting play a few computational tricks which are not relevant to binoculars. However it is also possible to manipulate what's called the MTF profile through camera lens design as well. Some are tuned to give higher contrast at lower resolution frequencies and reduce the detail compared to others. They appear "sharper" while delivering less information. I'm not convinced that these image manipulations are deliberately employed in binoculars but I do see differences in this regard in normal use and it's more obvious when you boost the resolution. Some models have much better contrast near the diffraction limit than others. It's not something I've tested on any of the three models in question but I suspect the Kowa is more the Pan-F type and the Swaro a faster ISO. Quite where the Minox sits I'm not sure. If, and it's a big if, the Minox was tuned intentionally or otherwise to low resolution/high 'sharpness' (in camera terms) then it might be easier for you to distinguish detail though the actual resolution story is probably rather different.

I might be totally wrong but it's the best I can come up with for the moment.

David
 
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David, Looking at that Porter "test" the best top high price binocular, the best buy is the 8x42 Leica Trinovid and the lower tier is the 8x42 Zeiss Conquest HD. This is going by price comparison and rankings. I notice you can click on orders at the bottom to order any of these.;) There were no Nikon 8x42 EDG binoculars tested, I wonder why?

David thanks for your post #31!


Maljunulo, I tried that, not very comfortable. I did sell this. I left the person try it for a long time and they wanted to buy it, at big discount of course. I know the person and they never complained to me about it.
 
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It is becoming more and more apparent to me that one persons observation about a binocular is practically meaningless to anyone but themselves...............................|:$|

Bruce

true, but
if multiple reviewers make the same observation,
it is probably accurate

edj
 
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