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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

What constitutes "Self found" ?? (1 Viewer)

thenorthernmonkey

CBWPS Stithians
What criteria needs to be fulfilled before a bird can be claimed as a "self found"

Obviously it shouldnt have previously been reported - What else?

What do others consider to be worthy of a self found list...
 
"Obviously it shouldnt have previously been reported - What else?"

Surely that's irrelevant if you don't watch for rare bird reports. It wouldn't matter if a bird had been seen by a hundred people who'd been using the grapevine to find out where it was if you were walking somewhere and came upon it by chance with no prior knowledge. I might be missing the point though as I don't do the birding/competitive/listing thing.
 
Hate the term. Usually used by birders with too much self worth. Could mention a few so called "self found" birds on some posters listings which where already "found" and even some that were mis-id'ed but don't want to bruise anyone's ego. Even some names attached to rare birds in reports weren't the finder but just the person who submitted an earlier description and/or were "in" with the report compilers.
 
"Obviously it shouldnt have previously been reported - What else?"

Surely that's irrelevant if you don't watch for rare bird reports. It wouldn't matter if a bird had been seen by a hundred people who'd been using the grapevine to find out where it was if you were walking somewhere and came upon it by chance with no prior knowledge. I might be missing the point though as I don't do the birding/competitive/listing thing.


You make a very valid point,one i was pondering before reading your post. I don't think your missing the point Fozzybear. P.
 
When I was 14, on holiday in Dornoch I found an unfamiliar gull amongst some black-headeds and commons on the beach, I took notes, and came to the conclusion (without field guides or any reference to hand) that I was watching a melanistic med gull. An hour later, some other birders appeared, so I asked them about this strange bird I had found - to which they replied "that's the laughing gull that's been here all week". So it is possible to self-find a bird that others have been watching for ages.
 
"Obviously it shouldnt have previously been reported - What else?"

Surely that's irrelevant if you don't watch for rare bird reports. It wouldn't matter if a bird had been seen by a hundred people who'd been using the grapevine to find out where it was if you were walking somewhere and came upon it by chance with no prior knowledge. I might be missing the point though as I don't do the birding/competitive/listing thing.

This point is discussed under rule 4 at http://www.freewebs.com/punkbirder/selffoundrules.htm
 
"Obviously it shouldnt have previously been reported - What else?"

Surely that's irrelevant if you don't watch for rare bird reports. It wouldn't matter if a bird had been seen by a hundred people who'd been using the grapevine to find out where it was if you were walking somewhere and came upon it by chance with no prior knowledge. I might be missing the point though as I don't do the birding/competitive/listing thing.

Hi Fozzy

Dont think you missed the point,the question is obviously aimed at people to who's enjoyment the "rules" are imperative !,which is fine,& not to people such as your self who like to "smell the roses"so to speak,which is also fine & all the people inbetween !:hippy:

PH
 

Yes, it does open up a can of worms regarding people who might lie... I have read some of the Bill Oddie books so have heard of these people who make fake claims. I guess the rule about only being recordable if you found it on the same day it was flagged up is probably a good workable compromise, I can imagine how frustrating it would be if you found a really amazing bird only to later find it was known and so you couldn't 'tick it' as found... even though you did.

Boy! Watching birds is complicated enough without all these rules - it's like football or one of those 27.5 sided dice dungeon games that pale kids play. ;) |:D| You're right PH, definitely not aimed at bird watchers like me... I'm probably more an all-weather robin-stroker. :-O
 
I agree, if you have no prior knowledge of a rare bird that has been around and you see it for the first time, oblivious that it had been there for a while, that could be regarded as a self-find. It was the same with my Dad and I before we were signed up to Birdguides. In 2004, we spotted a Snow Goose amongst a flock of Pink-footed Geese at Meickle Loch near the Ythan Estuary, and we became incredibly excited to report it to other birders in person. When another birder arrived as we watched the Snow Goose, we told him of it, and his reply was: "Oh, that's been around for about a week now". And despite a little disappointment, we were still very satisfied, as it was a very nice surprise for us. ;) With a flypast rare bird that you see, lets say a Fea's Petrel on a sea-watch, not so many people will believe it is a 'self find' of yours unless you get a photograph of the bird as you see it, or you have a few other people watching it with you that confirm identification once you point it out to them.
 
Hello Howard

Thats an enviable situation,you never regret the ones you missed or couldnt get to in time !

PH

Every day I go out I wish I had gone to other sites - we do have a resident ringer here Brendan using a few sites only - I do get we had we had etc.. but prefer to get the bigger pic myself.. even if its only partial 04.50 HERE now just off out for sunrise
 
Dear all,

Those who know me will know I am a 'fairly keen' twitcher and it never ceases to amaze me the amount of rare birds found in the UK and it seems a shame that we very rarely get chance to thank the finder in person, as when we get there, they're probably out avoiding the crowds and looking for the next one.

That said, I go back to the points alluded to by TophillBirder and FozzyBear and it is my opinion that the self-found analogy invaraibly applies to those who compete amongst themselves, say between mates on their local patch (friendly rivalry), or those out to prove a point (more of that later). To put this into context:

During the last 20 years I've been very fortunate to bird with some excellent birders, who are widely considered by their peers to be the best in their field (sorry for the pun) and consequently prolific bird-finders; on a national level, Dave Flumm and Ken Shaw both spring to mind as do Richard Patient and John Oates (now in the Midlands) from my home county - all have discovered gross rarities through sheer time in the field, perseverance, persistence and above all, knowing where to go and when to go out.

It is perhaps a reflection of their enjoyment and passion for the hobby that these great 'finders' of rare birds do not generally give a jot about initials in reports or 'self-found lists' etc, as they watch birds for pure enjoyment and if their hard work pays off they are entirely satisfied with their reward, which is not a written credit but actually the enormous buzz and excitement of others enjoying in their find. Paul Higson and the Sandhill Crane is a good example here - thanks again Paul!

There is however, as I mentioned earlier a dark side to this as pointed out by Tophillbirder, that there are individuals; they know who they are - who persist in a)claiming birds for themselves which others have found through their own endeavours or b) equally 'poaching' by sending the record in as their own to get their initials on the bird. This for me is fundamentally 'fraud' but above all else is disingenuous to the person who actually found the bird and totally dishonest, besides which it is rather sad that they have nothing better to occupy their time with. Please note no individuals are named here in the interests of diplomacy.

I've not found many 'rares' but then again I don't expect to, as I don't spend much time in the field - that is my decision though. However one only has to look at the pager messages coming through day after day at the moment to see the effort others spend in the hope of finding the 'big one'. I have the greatest respect for the people who each day, every day search for and find rare birds and UK 'twitching' would not exist without them.

They probably don't keep a list of what they've found but they are the 'self-found' heroes and I take my hat off to them!

S.



Is this what the hobby of birding has come to? Rule 4 or any other rule for that matter. Rules, smules...birding is for your enjoyment not a job! Don't treat it as such. Relax and just bird...
 
Its amazing to see how contentious "self finding" is, that a question regarding what constitutes a bird being self found turns into a thread on the rights and wrongs of it. ;)

For the record, i consider myself first and foremost to be a self found orientated birder, though i do twitch birds also. I maintain my self found list. The benefit of this for me is that it gets me out!

The place for a birder is out in the field IMHO, and the desire to find birds for myself prevents me from slipping into the trap of sitting at home waiting for news of someone elses rarity.

Ive always found it funny that there exist those people who look down on people keeping a self found list, yet avidly maintain their big national lists obtained through twitching. I gurantee that such people know by heart exactly what birds they may have found over the years (if any!) and are prepared to wheel them out should a duel arise : D.

So to answer the original question, a self found bird is any bird that you yourself come across which, as far as you know at the time, has no prior finder or person suspicious of its identity.

There are lots of various sets of rules out there, punkbirders being good, which get into the details and tough situations, but at the end of the day, like any list, the call as to what goes onto it is finally yours.

Enjoy yourself if you decide to keep one.

Regards,

Owen
 
Its amazing to see how contentious "self finding" is, that a question regarding what constitutes a bird being self found turns into a thread on the rights and wrongs of it. ;)

So to answer the original question, a self found bird is any bird that you yourself come across which, as far as you know at the time, has no prior finder or person suspicious of its identity.

(/QUOTE]

Thankyou very much Pariah - Got the answer in the end. I do feel though that there is a lot of fudging going on with various people and there self found lists - The reason for me asking the question in the first place...
 
I can definitely see the merits of a self-found list, as finding your own birds is usually much more rewarding than twitching other people's, although both have their place. However I don't think I'm going to start one any time soon, as the act of listing means there's always a temptation to bump things on there that perhaps don't quite deserve it, and as others have said there's a real chance of putting people's nose out by claiming birds that they also consider "theirs".

An example of this happened yesterday - I was passing the churchyard at Kilnsea and glimpsed what I took to be one of the yellow-browed warblers doing the rounds. While I was waiting for it flit into view, a small group of birders appeared on the other side of the trees that had obviously seen the same thing. While I was still searching it moved to their side of the trees, and I heard one of them say he thought it may be a Pallas's, and I walked round to where they were and got a good view.

So yes I was there at discovery, yes I saw the bird and was trying to ID it before I followed the gaze of other birders, and yes I contributed to ID (if saying "yes, it's difinitely got a distinct crown stripe" actually counts...). So I could possibly claim a self-found based on Punkbirder rules, but to me it would feel wrong as to me it "belongs" to the fella who first called Pallas's. For all I know if it wasn't for the other birders arriving I'd have wandered off before it showed again, putting it down as the same YBW I'd seen earlier, and moved on never the wiser...

However if I was keeping a self-found list I may be considering it very differently ;)
 
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