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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Zeiss Victory 8x32FL Vs Leica Trinovid 8x32BN ramblings (1 Viewer)

thisdudeisgood

The Dude Abides
Greetings all

I have been the proud owner of the Leica Trinovid 8x32BN for a number of years and think it is a fantastic midsize birding bin. I've eventually been persuaded by the reports of the superiority of the FL glass and after much soul searching / dithering and persuading of the wife, I parted with more £££'s for another 8x32.

Today I recieved my new Zeiss Victory 8x32 T* FL LotuTec (well secondhand but truly MINT). I will be doing some comparisons between the 2 German 8x32's and post my ramblings soon. I hasten to add I am not an optics buff and so the findings may be more personal observations as opposed to laboratory data! but I will do my best to compare them.

Here are a few pics in the meantime before I get going. (the objective covers on the Trinovid are from the Swarovski 8x30SLC (perfect snug fit on the Trinovid) as the Trinovid design had none)

More soon....

(first instant impression in the hand side by side on pure visuals alone is that to me IMHO the Trinovid looks like a more eye pleasing design, but the tactile feel of the Victory in my fingers feels better....but more on that later!)
 

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Thanks very much.

I have to say I am rather excited about them. I was out for 3 hours with them today and I am smiling a lot this evening!

Although they are my 'New' Bins, the Zeiss are secondhand but are in a truly MINT / very light use shop demo condition and have every single piece of original equipment / box / literature, right down to the little round lotutec tab on a string! ( I got a deeply serious bargain on these bins, but being Zeiss I suppose still very £££ to most )

On the subject of cost....... we should state from the outset that in this comparison the Zeiss is a much more expensive Binocular than the Leica (Trinovid 8x32BN when new approx £650 +/- £50 odd Victory 8x32T*FL when new approx £1250 +/- £50 odd). This is clearly a large price gulf.

Does the field performance and material quality justify that the Zeiss should cost twice the money of the Leica? In these days of austerity??......well....we will see....more soon;
 
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Bear in mind that the Trinovid 8x32 was discontinued in 2007.

The price for the Zeiss that you have quoted is the current price i.e five years later.

In 2007 the RRP for the Zeiss 8x32 FL was £800 so the street price would have been around £730 - £740.

The replacement for the Trinovid was the Ultravid 8x32 which is now selling for around £1350 (+/- £50).
 
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I'll be interested to hear what you think of these two outstanding binoculars, both are superb and a joy to use I doubt you'll find there is much in it though.
 
I have been through exactly the same thing as you, at the 8x42 size, and am looking forward to learning your reaction to the FL.

Grouse behave much the same way here in New Mexico, if it's any comfort. It's mating season, and I see them strutting about often on my morning walks up on the ski hill.
Ron
 
Hello garymh

Yes you are quite right, and I appreciate that Leica has the more modern Ultravid model to offer as way of opposition to the Victory. (I understand there is the Ultravid & the Ultravid HD....that's a little confusing). I have to say that to my mind there has always been a large price difference between the Trinovid and the Victory, although as you say perhaps not quite as large as I first stated.

However I don't have any of those models to compare so it will be the Trinovid Vs the Victory, not a fair contest some may say, but should still be worthwhile. (I see that Leica have just recently re-released a newly designed Trinovid in 2012, in the 8x42 and 10x42 format. I wonder if we will get a new 8x32 too?)

(Interestingly though...... I once owned the Leica Trinovid 10x32BN and sold it to a chap who owned the Ultravid 10x32....he got back to me and said he could see no real difference in his opinion between the 2 and he sold the Ultravid and pocketed the difference!)
 
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Hello ronh

Your birding area there in New Mexico sounds very interesting. I always thought of that area as a Desert environment but from your description you must have pretty high altitudes also. Sounds idyllic.

Los Alamos....do you get many Alien vagrant species there?....ha ha, only kidding.

I must say I do love Grouse they have bags of character. (my avatar is supposed to be a Capercaillie) I heard my 1st Capercaillie last week, in the county of Moray, Scotland, but I have still to see one through the Bins. What a sound it makes! it's hard to believe it comes from a bird.
 
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Hello all

The weather is wet today so I will start the comparison with the overall package you get when you buy them and give some opinions on ‘what’s in the box’ and presentation etc. I suppose some of these observations are just boring details so sorry about that but hay ho.

I will save the binocular handling, build and optical performance (the real juicy comparisons) for another category(s) I think. Here is today’s category.

Category 1: Overall package and what’s included.

What is striking first of all is that the Leica box is about half the size of the Zeiss box, the Leica box is made from a glossier, thicker cardboard while the Zeiss box is of a cheaper grade paper. Everything is packed away tightly in an efficient manner inside the Leica box with a hard cardboard carcass design within that all the accessories fit into like a Puzzle. The ocular rain guard and strap also have their own individual small boxes that looks just like the design of the main box. In the Zeiss box there is much more fresh air space with the Bins, case and literature contained within an internal square central chamber and the rain guard / strap / objective covers in the outer hollow space. The Zeiss has a dedicated lens cloth wiper of high quality and the literature is contained within a high tech electric blue plastic bag whereas the Leica does not have a cloth lens wiper. Winner in the packaging stakes for me is Leica. It feels much more classy, better designed and expensive. The Leica should have a lens wipe though.

This size difference also applies to the protective carry cases. The Leica being much smaller, unpadded and made of Leather with a zip closure. It has more rigid sections in the base, rear and top to maintain its shape and rigidity. The Leica also has a neat solution for threading your binocular strap through a flap on the top rear of the case, the flap being secured by two metal pop studs. This allows you to use the Binocular strap to double as the case carrying strap. It is all a very neat and compact and well thought out design, ideal for travelling. The Zeiss case a good deal larger and made of padded Nylon with a plastic clasp closure. It has D-rings on the sides, belt loops on the back and a mesh pouch with zip closure inside. It also has a black nylon carry strap that can be removed at will with a clasp. Overall it is a well made case. This is a hard one to call and depends on your take on things. Again the Leica case looks and feels more classy and expensive and must have been more expensive to produce, but for a field binocular the Zeiss has more protection for the optics, it has more practical applications with the belt loops and D-rings. I personally do not use cases as I feel they are too cumbersome. So I will say if you’re looking for original design and class it would be the Leica but if you’re looking for real protection and wider carrying options it would be the Zeiss.

In addition to a case both binoculars have an ocular rain guard made of rubber and a neck strap. As far as the rain guards go I rate them equally in function and quality but the Zeiss has more options. To me the Trinovid rain guard was always the best I had used but after using the Victory yesterday for 3 hours I can say it works just as good. Both have just the right amount of snug fit to be easy to apply and remove while being secure at the same time. The Zeiss are round with a flexible bridge and the option of attaching the neck strap to both sides of the rain guard if desired. The Leica rain guard can only be attached on the left to the neck strap and is a more teardrop shape again with flexible bridge. I always attach the rain guard on the left anyway. The original Leica neck strap has leather tethers where it fits onto the binoculars rounded metal lugs, again all very classy, these are secured by a cufflink stud like design which is very neat and original. The majority of the strap is nylon and the neck support section a thick rubber part with Leica insignia and hard dimples on the inside for grip (not very comfy on naked skin). The Zeiss is a contoured to fit the neck neoprene strap 4cm wide with grippy warm rubber on the inside, Zeiss insignias where the neoprene section meets the nylon strap. It has Carl Zeiss written on it in silver script. Standard nylon buckle fastening to lugs on sides of binocular. For me the Zeiss strap wins this one for comfort and practicality although the Leica is well designed and made and very original and unusual (and probably more expensive to manufacture). I fitted the aftermarket Leica Neoprene strap to the Trinovids for increased comfort (although this is expensive £30 odd I believe). Where the Zeiss again trumps the Leica is its inclusion of tethered rubber objective covers as standard. These fit well and work well and add sensible protection to the objectives. I am a fan of objective covers as I get into bramble thickets and other unlikely places and I think it was a flaw that the Trinovids never came with a pair. (The Swarovski 8x30SLC tethered rubber objective covers fit the Trinovid 8x32BN, work well and I have them fitted to mine, they are cheap and readily available at around £6 odd delivered).

Probably the last thing to cover when discussing ‘what’s in the box’ is the Guarantee. Zeiss is 10 years Leica is 30 years. Winner is Leica. (when I bought my 10x32BN Trinovids from new they were covered by a 30 year Leica unconditional ‘passport’ warranty that guaranteed to repair any defect even if it was user abuse that caused the fault...and no matter how many previous owners as long as you had the passport certificate....now beat that!) I wonder if these 8x32BN are covered under this too because in their box its just the standard 30yr warranty (maybe someone can give me advice on this?)

So to sum up this first (somewhat strange) category I would say that the Leica package leaves me with the impression, the ‘feel’, of a classier more expensive product out of the box, better packaging, original exclusive designs and quality materials and solid manufacture, it wouldn’t be out of place on the Orient Express!. It also has a 3x longer guarantee. Certainly there is nothing obvious here to suggest why the Zeiss is so much more expensive. But for me the Zeiss package has the more practical options in the field in my opinion. The comfy neoprene strap / the tethered objective covers / the thickly padded protective case with different carry options / the option to fit the rain guard on both straps, the lens cloth etc are more suited to the serious field user in my opinion. The material quality and manufacture is also very high. Bear in mind that as described above the Leica can get the neoprene strap and objective tethers as aftermarket extras.

So it depends on what you value. For me I would have to call the Zeiss the overall winner in this category for its practicality and extra features.

I will get round to the serious comparisons soon...
 

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pictures of the original Leica neckstrap I forgot to add.
 

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Thanks for posting those photos. When I bought my ex-demo Trinovid 8x32 BN it was accidentally supplied with an Ultravid case, rainguard and strap. This is the first time I have seen a photo of the proper Trinovid leather case. I didn't bother to complain as the accessories work well, apart from the rainguard which is a little tighter than I would have preferred. I will have to see if I can get the right one some day.

I think my Trinovids are brilliant and would never part with them. I have tried the Zeiss 8x32 FLs on a couple of occasions and really liked them too but, as you say, they are much more expensive than my £500 ex-demo Leicas.

Ron
 
I think that Leica case, if it like the one I have for my 7 x 42 Trinovid, is designed to be used not only as a case but as a rain guard when it is raining. It stays on your neck strap all the time and slides down out of the way when you lift the binocular to your eyes to use it. You don't need a rain guard or objective covers when you carry it. It works well.

Bob
 
I think that Leica case, if it like the one I have for my 7 x 42 Trinovid, is designed to be used not only as a case but as a rain guard when it is raining. It stays on your neck strap all the time and slides down out of the way when you lift the binocular to your eyes to use it. You don't need a rain guard or objective covers when you carry it. It works well.

Bob

Hi Bob
yeah i'm sure your dead right there about the case. I don't use cases but Its good to know that method works for you. For me that method would be too intrusive and I reckon objective covers are more simple to use, but that's just me. Does the fine leather not get ruined in the rain? Thanks for the input.
 
Hello,

I own both the 8x32 BN and the 8x32 Fl. Since I bought the FL, the Leica has been in the cupboard. The Zeiss has far more vivid colour rendition, great center sharpness and the edges are good almost to the very edge. The included kit is the very best, i have seen. Above all, the Zeiss' overall view, which is a little wider than the Leica, is just so good.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :hi:
 
Hi Bob
yeah i'm sure your dead right there about the case. I don't use cases but Its good to know that method works for you. For me that method would be too intrusive and I reckon objective covers are more simple to use, but that's just me. Does the fine leather not get ruined in the rain? Thanks for the input.

I only use it when I travel with them. It's more convenient and less bulky than a regular case and you don't have to fiddle with the rain guard and objective covers. It fits easily into any briefcase or hand carry luggage. With an 8 x 32 it might even fit into a safari jacket pocket. You could snap the case off and keep it in your jacket pocket when you aren't using it.

Bob
 
Hello all

Today's ramble is category 2.

I have decided category 2 will be a comparison of the build quality and mechanical operation / build materials and how practical each binocular is when in use. I suppose this category will be more interesting to a potential buyer than category 1.

Category 3 (the most important category in my view) will be another separate report another day and will be a comparison of the view.

Here is todays category, Category 2: Build / mechanics / materials and user friendliness

First of all when you look at both binoculars side by side on the table you can tell right away that they are ‘birds of a feather’ pardon the pun, i.e. they are both high quality well thought out objects that you instinctively want to pick up. For practical comparison they are essentially the same size albeit that the Zeiss is slightly taller in the vertical plane viewed from behind given its prominent focus wheel, the Leicas focus wheel sits into the bulk of the body more. In a nutshell I suppose you could say overall that the Leica has a more curvaceous overall profile than the more angular Zeiss. This observation extends to the rain guards which on the Leica sit flush with the general slope of the barrels while on the Zeiss the rain guards sit up proud of the barrels giving a more ‘stuck on the end’ feeling. I suppose from this you could argue that the Zeiss is more likely to catch on items of clothing while in use, but in reality while I have been using it there is no difference. Both binoculars are so small they don’t really get in the way of anything, (I guess thats what I like so much about the 8x32 format in general).

The objective covers tethers stay tight and snug on the barrels and the cover sections are easy to pop on and off when in use, these also stay put when 'employed'. If you removed these objective covers you would obviously get a lighter and sleeker outfit. It's Important to note here that the Zeiss come with objective covers as standard & there are none for the Leica unless you purchase aftermarket non Leica ones (the Swarovski covers here in this comparison are a much softer rubber than the Zeiss but perform just as well on the Trinovid). For my money the rubber from which the Zeiss objective covers are made is a little harder than that covering the chassis. Looks winner: for me I prefer the looks of the Leica, the lower profile focus wheel, the in-line rain guard and the curves. They float my boat, may be a bit dated to most but I like them.

The Leica is a little heavier 687g as opposed to 609g for the Zeiss. This measurement was obtained on my digital kitchen scales with all the covers on and the neoprene straps resting on the table so it is a fairly accurate weight for the bins minus the straps. Hefting them in both hands and around the neck it is pretty hard to percieve this weight difference although it is there. If you put on the original Trinovid strap they feel noticeably heavier. The Trinovid Chassis is Aluminium I believe and the Zeiss is a Glass Fibre reinforced resin / plastic and I guess this is where most of the weight difference lies. For a grown adult and for practical purposes there is almost no difference. Winner: Zeiss

The dioptre adjustment designs are also somewhat different, this will need a paragraph each.

1. On the Zeiss you look through the optic and close your right eye, then use the focus wheel until you get a sharp picture with the left. If you then open your right eye and everything is still pin sharp then your dioptre doesn’t need adjusting. If however your right eye is getting a blurred image then you need to use the dioptre adjuster. This is performed by pulling the focus wheel towards your face to reveal a small graduated scale, the focus wheel can then be rotated to set the dioptre value that suits. When you get a pin sharp picture pop the focus wheel back forward to reengage normal focus for both barrels. It works as it should and when set everything stays sharp. The focus wheel is made of rubber and has raised wide ribs for grip, there is a longer rib on the wheel and when this is aligned with an arrow at the hinge of the right barrel you have infinity focus. A good practical system. The actual movement of the focus wheel is smooth and precise as you could hope and cannot be faulted at all.

2. On the Leicas dioptre is adjusted thus: when you pull the focus wheel toward you the upper part (closest to your nose) disengages from the lower part (closest to the objectives) revealing a red ring. The red ring lets you know that you are now in dioptre setting mode. The upper part controls the focus for your right eye and the lower part the left eye. So to focus the right eye you simply close your left eye and focus as normal using the upper part of the focus wheel until you get a pin sharp picture then to get a good view with the left eye close the right eye and focus as normal using the lower part. When that is sharp reengage the upper and lower parts by pushing them together again so the red ring is hidden and voila! The focus is now combined. Looking at the rear of the focus wheel there is a clear scale in a white window so different users can remember their setting. When the dot on the rear of the focus wheel is aligned with an arrow at the rear of the left barrel that represents a focus to infinity. The Leicas focus wheel is made of hard plastic and has narrow triangular ridges for grip, like the Zeiss I cannot fault the smooth and perfect operation of this focus mechanism. I will say that the Leica was purchased in 2004 and the focus is as smooth as new.

Focus speed and quality wise I rate them the same. Both sublime and effortless, they really make the whole birding experience far more pleasant. For ease of use, design and practicality for dioptre setting the Leica for me is the clear winner. It takes longer to get your view right with the Zeiss for me.

Lets now have a look at the coverings, the armour if you like. Both are black rubber, the Leica having 14 thinner, low profile ribs all on each barrel extending all the way around the barrels to the hinge underneath, the Zeiss having 4 wider more prominently raised ribs on each barrel extending just over halfway around each barrel. The Leica rubber has a harder texture and while not slick it is not as grippy or tactile as the Zeiss rubber. As the Leica has an Aluminium chassis the armour is wrapped around each barrel like a jacket i.e. I do not think it is actually physically bonded to the chassis. I may be wrong here but I say this because on the underside of the Leica barrels there is a slight bit of give between the armour and the chassis i.e. you can push the armour and it rebounds upward slightly as if there is an air space below. This is minor and does not apply to the top of the barrels. I used to own a 10x32BN Trinovid and do not recall this particular phenomenon. Can it be that there was variation in production quality at the factory? Or is it just the age of the binocular and effects of UV etc on the rubber? Has anyone else encountered this? The Zeiss however has no such issue. I think that as the Chassis is a resin the Zeiss rubber is actually physically bonded onto the chassis. Thats how it feels to me anyway. It is tight all the way around the barrels / hinge and the only ‘give’ is in the actual softness of the rubber itself. Armour winner: I like the Zeiss better. For me it’s the clear winner here. It is grippy and feels more organic to the fingers and it warms up to your skin temp quickly. It feels more expensive and better applied.

Next we have the main hinges. Zeiss hinge is smaller diameter, 3 sections and the end cap with the Zeiss prism motif. Not too stiff and works perfectly, positive and smooth. Plastic coated but underneath you can see two (brass?) rings, I don’t know if these are washers or what but they are visible. I think it cheapens the look but thats just me. Another gripe I have here about the Zeiss is that from the underside of the binocular, between where the hinge joins the focus wheel there is a tapering piece of plastic but on my example it moves from side to side a good 5mm or so. It is very cheap looking on an otherwise quality binocular and when you shake the binocular it can sometimes produce a small rattle. This is a bad bit of design I think. Does anyone else have this issue or just me? Other than this issue it is a good solid hinge. The Leica is a larger diameter hinge and looks the more solid. It is in two halves with an unmarked end cap. All black and plastic covered, looks neater and more businesslike than the Zeiss. It is also smooth and not too stiff even after 9 years or so. Winner: Leica, it looks much better and has no cheap wobbly bits. (Tip...if you want to tell whether a Victory has Lotutec coatings look at the hinge area. If you see a curve like an umbrella above the objective size number it has Lotutec. It also says Victory FL on the left barrel armour instead of just Victory F, and the pre Lotutec Victories came in a black box as opposed to the blue / white.)

The last things I can think of are the lugs where the neck strap attaches. On the Zeiss they are rectangular, angular and set right back as far as you can go on the barrels. I guess this gives the hands more room on the binocular. I think they are made of a black coated metal and seem very solid and dependable. The Leicas lugs (in Scotland we call the ears on your head ‘lugs’ ha ha) are set into the barrels a little further in, are rectangular but of rounded shiny metal (Aluminium?). I can see the merits in what Zeiss was trying to do by setting them so far back on the barrels but in practical use I can’t consciously tell any difference, none of the two designs hinders my use of the binocular. Winner: Draw.

I apologize to all readers who wear spectacles. I do not and so cannot be of assistance when discussing eye relief etc. It makes no difference to me. But in a nutshell you have more options with the Zeiss as they pull out further giving the greatest eye relief.

I will ramble on a bit about the eyepieces themselves. Both good quality rubber that is comfortable when pressed to the skin. I can’t really separate the textures it may even be the same rubber. Leica approx 3.8mm Zeiss approx 4mm diameter across the whole eyepiece not just the lens. Actual lenses approx 2mm each so the same here. I always use binoculars with the eyepieces pulled right out. With the Zeiss you have 4 definite options, fully in, fully out or two steps in between. With the Leica you only have two, fully in or fully out. You could argue that on the leica you could pull it in or out as far you like thus giving numerous positions but there is no positive click until you pull them right out so they would probably move or be pushed back inwards when you look through them. Both models have good positive clicks at the different positions and will not move once set even when applying rain guards. Both are excellent and to me both get the same rating although for spectacle wearers I guess the Zeiss would be a clear winner. Who knows, I’m in my mid 30’s but my eyes might get bad soon so the Zeiss may have the longer term appeal. Winner: Zeiss for the 4 positions instead of 2.

Well that concludes category 2.

If I have to put my neck on the line and pick a winner overall I would have to go for the Zeiss. Why? Well it is the tactile grippy warm feel of the rubber in my hand that does it. I really like the feel of the Zeiss. I have to say though that I think build quality is much the same, the Zeiss has the wobbly plastic bit but the Trinovids armour is not as chassis hugging (on this sample anyway). I find them equally as easy to use in the field, i.e. superb.

Based on categary 2 in my opinion there is absolutely nothing to suggest why the Zeiss is almost 2x the price of the Leica!

Next category will be a comparison of the view and coatings etc...will this reveal the reason for the gulf in price?? We shall see...
 

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More pics relating to category 2.
 

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