What did I miss? Terra ED??? (1 Viewer)

According to this, the Terra's really will be $349.00 [8x] and $399.00 [10x]

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f18/camera-land-goes-shot-show-next-week-105269/

Pretty aggressive pricing......

james holdsworth said:

According to this, the Terra's really will be $349.00 [8x] and $399.00 [10x]

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f18/camera-land-goes-shot-show-next-week-105269/

Pretty aggressive pricing......

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Depends on the quality.
Could also be overprised.
Let's wait and see.

jan van daalen said:

Lee,

It seems that, for you, it takes only one sentence to come to the point, as where I need a half page.
But I agree fully with your post.
Jan

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Jan

I am usually more famous for using 10 words instead of one so maybe I got lucky this time .

Sub-contracting the manufacture of even premium products is hardly new. Look at Porsche: the first model Boxster and Cayman were both made in Finland by Valmet.

Lee

Lee,
That may be so, but did Porsche made a secret out of this?
Second, it's just my personel view that A brands should not outsource, but maybe I'm a dynosaur from the past becoming extinct.
Jan

Doug at CameralandNY posted on the 24 Hr Campfire Hunting Optics forum that the Terra ED will be $349 for the 8x and $399 for the 10x Terra ED's.

Many Zeiss and Leica camera lenses have been made abroad for many years.
Some Leica cameras and lenses were Minolta either complete or with final checking and tweaking by Leica.
Yashica Contax was mainly Japanese I think.
Zeiss made a lot of low priced cameras and nobody seems to know outside Zeiss where some 1950s products were made.
I have some Philips lenses that I think are Zeiss. There are NATO items that are probably Zeiss. Many items have strange serial numbers.
Phillips Holland surprisingly made lenses as well as the known Den Oude Delft.
In the world of commerce nobody really knows where things are made or who makes them or even what is in them, wines and spirits being one example.
It is likely that electronics can come from anywhere.
This mystery is not new it has been going on for a very long time.
Sometimes I think only the label comes from the obvious source, but it may be Zeiss labels are made in China.
What is very obvious is that many binocular and camera cases are clearly marked China.
But I do think it is wrong, very wrong, if a product is clearly labelled Made in Somewhere and it isn't.
That is deceit plain and simple.

jan van daalen said:

Lee,
That may be so, but did Porsche made a secret out of this?
Second, it's just my personel view that A brands should not outsource, but maybe I'm a dynosaur from the past becoming extinct.
Jan

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Hi Jan

No Porsche did not hide this at all, although it is fair to say they did not shout it from the roof tops either.

Also it may not be correct for us to refer to the Terra as 'outsourced'. I think this word would be more properly used if the Terra was another company's design and manufacture and the bins simply badged as Zeiss.

If Terra is a Zeiss design and is made by Kamakura (perhaps as components to be assembled in Wetzlar?) then it is probably more correct to say the manufacture is sub-contracted.

Lee

While not straying too far from the subject.... I note the prices of the new Terra ED's reflect the frequent "bump" in price of the 10x over the 8x... does it really cost more to produce a 10x than an 8x?

The 10x eyepieces are often more complex and wider apparent field than the 8x.
Theoretically the general standard of the objectives and prisms should be higher in the 10x, but often I think they are the same.

Steve C said:

FWIW, I have information that also says the Conquest HD is made mostly by Kamakura with just enough final touches done in Germany to qualify for the Made in Germany label. So I'm with Jan here

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As the "Great Speculator," I speculated that the Conquest HD's weren't actually made in Germany when the bin first came out, because it just didn't make sense that they could build them for that low price in Germany. Goods cost 15% more to manufacture in Germany than in the US just because of energy price differences alone, and that's before you add on the higher labor and materials costs. Then tack on the "Value Added Tax" and it just didn't seem possible.

Jan's story about the mix-up with the "Made in Germany" label in the brochures sounds fishy.Not that I mean what he said isn't true, but that Zeiss didn't know about the slip up. Like most large companies, Zeiss likely farms out their advertising and printing, but they must have some in-house marketing or sales staff who have to approve whatever goes out there for public consumption, be it what's in brochures or on Websites.

I used to work in a marketing dept. for a 16-company conglomerate and we had an ad agency do our brochures and ads, but nothing went out unless it first went past my boss and me for proofreading. We caught some errors on occasion, but most of the time the ads were just as we had asked for them to be printed. I even wrote copy for some of them and took photos. So if they couldn't slip one by the two of us, it's hard to believe that a major goof like Made in Germany would slip by the folks in the marketing dept/sales dept. at Zeiss.

More likely, they are "stretching" it, as dennis would say, but probably legally.

I recall a discussion we had a while ago about the labeling in Germany. Perhaps Hermann or Hinnark could elaborate. As I recall, companies have a lot of latitude about labeling products as Made in Germany that are really "Made in Germany" (to cash in on Ron's joke). But that the Angela and her people were in the process of reviewing this policy and were pushing for stricter standards. But I haven't heard anything about that since.

The U.S. went through this "truth in advertising" in the 1980s, early 1990s. I remember writing about "Buy American?" when a lot of misinformed folks were putting that bumper sticker on the cars, American cars that had 40% parts from other countries and most were likely assembled in Canada or Mexico. At that time Japan started building cars here, closer to their end market.

So Congress finally passed new rules about Made in America labeling that were stricter than before. My guess is that Germany will eventually follow suit.

Now we have foreign cars such as Kias and Hondas made in the U.S. and only one in five GM vehicles manufactured in the U.S.., and most of those are trucks.

Note Chrysler's recent ad campaign - "Imported from Detroit". It's apparently now exotic to have a car made in the U.S. and prestigious to own one, or at least that's what Chrysler seems to be trying to sell us.

Here's the mixed up, muddled up, shook up world of automakers:

The Jeep's Patriot is built in Belvedere, Ill., but its transmissions are made in Mexico, Japan and Germany. Ford's Detroit-assembled Mustang contains transmissions that come from....GULP!... China, France, the U.K., and Mexico.

Chrysler's PT Cruiser is assembled in Toluca, Mexico, though its transmission is U.S.-sourced. GM builds its Chevy Camaro in Canada and its GMC Sierra pickup in Mexico.

So is it really so surprising that Zeiss would outsource the manufacture of their bins? Leica makes the Trinnies in Portugal and Zeiss had made the original Conquests in Hungary.

Outsourcing has been going on for years, so I'm not sure why people are so shocked, but I can understand their upset over being duped with the "Made in Germany" tag. Hopefully, Zeiss will come clean and straighten that out.

Perhaps we need more public outcry. Open your window, and scream at the top of your lungs.

ZEISS! I'M MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!

Then go out and buy a Terra ED and let me know how you like it.

<B>

I think Jan got into this in one of his replies above. I don't think Zeiss even thought a Japanese binocular would ever even be an issue. They likely though that they could simply offer it as a Zeiss and that everyone would be good to go.

I don't for a minute believe the printed material and the website information is by any means accidental.

Having said that, I think the design and QC is what counts. I think the Conquest HD is a very good glass and I might well save up and get one.

No doubt, the Conquest HD is a fine glass, and somewhat of a benchmark for all but the top 'alpha' models - it's pricing is spot on - and must be causing quite a bit of head scratching :brains: amongst competitors. Each individual customer though (or potential one), will have their own "take" on what's acceptable in terms of "truth" in advertising, "perceived" impact on Brand "quality" and "morality" / "reputation" ....

'Teehee' ....... "please" "forgive me" for having "fun" with all of these "rabbit ears" - just being a little bit "cheeky" & a little bit "naughty" -
I couldn't help myself! :-O

I think "ronh" hit the nail on the head ........ " " usually means - yeah! as if, or, not bl**dy likely! nudge, nudge - wink, wink It's a way of covering one's backside, and in this era of global communication (I know we have trouble getting things right-way up!), the added uncertainty over cultural norms, web /printed data inconsistencies /timing, grammar and usage (Datz 4 doz dat evn remmba sum propa inglsh n dat b4 txt tlk - c u l8r! gr8 m8!! :t. Or, it could even be taken to mean exactly, or literally just that - where's our resident etymologist when you need one? (Ooopppps - 'pardon', I seem to have complicated matters somewhat with "italicry!") :eek!:

So it's a subject fraught with confusion, "grey areas", miss interpretation, misundersanding, misdirection - some may even call it "magic" ...... Heck! :h?: I'm still tryin' to work out what Jan meant when he said, "but that's how it went down according to my Zeiss representative at the end of this soap." ????? does that mean in the final 'wash up' (ie. analysis)?, at the end of this long running 'saga'?, or some reference to steamrooms, or 'sponge baths' ??!!! (not that "there's" anything wrong with "that" - curious Dutch or otherwise!) I just don't know ........ 8-P

One thing is for certain though - make no mistake - that "Made in Germany" came straight from the Zeiss legal wigs - non-negotiable - no accident.

The apparent fact (I have my own legal department writing the rules!) that apparent confusion, shifting sands, and apparent misinformation came in to the equation - with some customers speculating and questioning origin /quality /brand value, shows just how slippery /quickly, the slope gets ..... (at least according to our resident Swaro peddler ....... no offence Jan - I was referring to the 'bicycle powered mobile Swaro dispenser' - and besides it was my pesky legal dept. again)

This whole "murky" saga, is "exactly" the "sort" of "risk" I was talking about ...... and this is with the highly regarded Conquest HD......

Globalisation is a fact. Here to stay. It doesn't matter whether it's outsourced, insourced, bolognese sourced, or teriyaki sourced, and now sweet n sour sauced (please hold the sour for me - and no sprinkling of salt n pepper either - especially on my prisms!), but somehow built in "tribal waziristan" or wherever under Zeiss QC control fills me with no confidence...... QC is soooooo last millenium (died out in the1980's), replaced by QA, 5S, lean, six sigma, and quality circles, etc

Here in Oz I've seen goods manufactured from the ground up, using parts no bigger than fly poop - but because those gee-whizz bits came from Japan etc, there was no way you could stick a Made in Australia accreditation on it, apparently the Germans, seem to have loopholes larger than bratwurst sandwiches!

The final "proof" will be in the pudding, but I'm not liking the taste so far - big roll of the dice Zeiss, big roll ........


Chosun :gh:

CJ

And you are telling me that I am hard to figure out in my Dutch English.
God, I don't understand half what you write about, but OK.
"At the end of this soap" means that the talks about the origing of the Conquest HD came up before the IWA, because of the "marks".
On the first day of the IWA, confronted with the doubt, Zeiss attitude was: Correct, Kamakura made.
But I wasn't the only one who started questioning the origins. So after, or maybe because of, French, English, Norwegian etc "intervention" the marketing machine of Zeiss moved in and the answer changed in: So what" and later on the IWA into : "No, it is genuine Zeiss made".
And that's where the soap ended. It was decision making on the scene, because they got overwhelmed by the negative response on the statement that Zeiss was outsourcing to Japan.

jan van daalen said:

CJ

And you are telling me that I am hard to figure out in my Dutch English.
God, I don't understand half what you write about, but OK.
"At the end of this soap" means that the talks about the origing of the Conquest HD came up before the IWA, because of the "marks".
On the first day of the IWA, confronted with the doubt, Zeiss attitude was: Correct, Kamakura made.
But I wasn't the only one who started questioning the origins. So after, or maybe because of, French, English, Norwegian etc "intervention" the marketing machine of Zeiss moved in and the answer changed in: So what" and later on the IWA into : "No, it is genuine Zeiss made".
And that's where the soap ended. It was decision making on the scene, because they got overwhelmed by the negative response on the statement that Zeiss was outsourcing to Japan.

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Jan

So is it possible the negative response to the idea of outsourcing to Japan actually did persuade Zeiss to really manufacture the Conquest in Germany?

Lee

Steve C said:

FWIW, I have information that also says the Conquest HD is made mostly by Kamakura with just enough final touches done in Germany to qualify for the Made in Germany label. So I'm with Jan here

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Hi Steve

Does your info give a clue as to which Kamakura factory is involved? Japan or China or ?

Lee

Lee,

That's absolutely possible. If so, such an decision is taken on a higher level and that takes time. But Zeiss could/should comment on this.
Why hesitate to take the doubt away?
As I mentioned earlier: A supplier who lies is exit. So the Dutch rep of Zeiss does not tell me any stories. Wetzlar? Maybe. Oberkochen? Full of shit.
Jan
Jan.

Troubador said:

Hi Steve

Does your info give a clue as to which Kamakura factory is involved? Japan or China or ?

Lee

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Sorry'it does not.

This is all very interesting to say the least. In the Zeiss Conquest HD thread here, Gary did specifically state that the Zeiss Conquest HD definitely do have ED glass and definitely are made in Wetzlar, Germany.

garymh said:

Made in the Zeiss factory at Wetzlar, Germany.

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I have no problem with Japan optics, as long as it's labeled as such. I do have a problem being told as a fact that the binoculars are made in Wetzlar, Germany, if they are not. FWIW, I did buy the Conquest HD, and they should be arriving today. Part of the appeal is that they are made in Germany. I understand that sometimes companies use marketing talk or punctuation to get around wording...but if they are stating flat out lies...that's just wrong.

EDIT: I'm not accusing anybody...because this issue has not officialy been verified...I'm just stating my thoughts on the matter.

"Assembled" in Germany would likely be much more accurate.

Well it's a nice question at the Shot Show.