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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

An Open Letter To Stephen Ingraham (1 Viewer)

About shadow detail and internal reflection

I would have edited a previous post, but it has already been quoted.

In fact, my first use of the 8x32 FL, a woodpecker against clear sky, had superlative shadow detail, enough for me to remark on this quality to others. However, I did notice that on rare occasions, strong sidelight, from a single source, like a low sun, well outside the binocular's field, did cause a disturbing internal reflection. Perhaps better internal baffling would make a noticeable difference.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood
 
angelo225544 said:
Thank you, Mr. Ingraham, for your thoughtful response. I think we are all in agreement that Zeiss has succeeded in expanding the optical envelope with its use of FL glass - at least in terms of controlling chromatic abberation - and that the 7x42 is the finest of the FL's.

This has been very interesting commentary. Zeiss does seem to have been far more successful in developing wide angle 7x binoculars than its competitors - the 7 x 45 Night Owl and 7 x 42 Classic are recent examples of past optical successes- and I suspect that most would probably agree that the 7 x 42 is the crown jewel of the FL series. Flare control due to lack of effective internal baffling, however, also seems to have been a chronic recent gripe, and the likely downfall of the Victory I series, coupled with near universal dismay with disappointing ergonomics and overuse of thermoplastics. Perhaps the next series will really get it right.
 
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Dear mr. Ingraham,

I'm thoroughly satisfied with my 7x42 FL's, I love them so much I would marry them, I will never ever sell them and will probably be buried with them, so what I'm about to say isn't very logical;
I'm looking forward to the day the next generation of FL's will appear, with double focus wheels on both ends of the hinge...

Surely, if Optolyth can do that in their Royal and Vianova series, Zeiss can do it too!

Thank you so much, I'll buy a wide-brimmed hat anticipating that day,

Greetings, Ronald Sinoo
 
angelo225544 said:
Since Mr. Ingraham is Zeiss' liason to the birding world, I thought we, as a community, might be able to offer some suggestions as to what improvements we would like to see made to the FL line...SNIP...There Is Room For Improvement Here!

The greatest improvement BY FAR Zeiss could make is in its warranty repairs and customer service. It is just plain godawful. At least in the US.
 
Zeiss service

Bill Atwood said:
The greatest improvement BY FAR Zeiss could make is in its warranty repairs and customer service. It is just plain godawful. At least in the US.


I agree with Bill Atwood. I own two pairs of FLs and I love them. However, my brushes with the sales and repairs department have left me praying that nothing ever goes wrong with bins. I found that they were pretty incompetent. I am finding that the rubber covering on one of my pairs of FLs is coming unstuck from the underlying material, but would rather put up with it than send them in for repair.
 
hg1 said:
I agree with Bill Atwood. I own two pairs of FLs and I love them. However, my brushes with the sales and repairs department have left me praying that nothing ever goes wrong with bins. I found that they were pretty incompetent. I am finding that the rubber covering on one of my pairs of FLs is coming unstuck from the underlying material, but would rather put up with it than send them in for repair.

Likewise with the rubber armor lifting on my new FLs. I sent them in for repair on warranty, and received them back within 10 days, only to have the problem continue. Made the next round of repairs myself with a good all purpose household cement. The work log at Zeiss service center indicated a 15 minute procedure - whereas I spent a good half hour on it with an overnight cure. I'm very satisfied with the repair work now. After all, its my own handiwork! C'mon Zeiss ... this is NOT within factory tolerance!

Mr. Ingraham - this is not my idea, nor I assume yours, of an acceptable "cost vs. benefit" level of quality. I am keeping them to justify the money spent. You "nailed it" with the ClassiCs in their day. Oh, that the FLs were their 21st century equivalent, at least with respect with their quality of construction!

(Angelo, where do I sign?)
 
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As someone who generally avoids the BINOCULARS section of Birdforum (for obvious reasons), I'm only commenting here in the interests of fairness and balance.
People are giving their personal opinions/observations (and sometimes drawing conclusions) about the Zeiss FL's, which may well affect the decisions of others.
So my opinion is that at present they are the best available; I've been using them since I bought them,via Birdforum,at a reduced price,when they first were launched and have been completely satisfied.
I've used them in all sorts of conditions and have never had a problem.
It would be unfortunate if future Zeiss bin purchasers were put off by solely negative opinions on here, hence my post.

The only caveat being that I use them for observing birds and have no knowledge of the technicalities...
 
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[QUOTE=People are giving their personal opinions/observations (and sometimes drawing conclusions) about the Zeiss FL's, which may well affect the decisions of others.

I would first like to say to Grousemore....Welcome to a FORUM!! (a meeting to discuss topics of public concern)

If a product is of inferior quality and does not live up to the manufacturers claims, I see no reason why the purchaser should not complain to the company that made it.

If the same problem is occurring throughout the line of the product then the company should address the fault and honour the claim of excellence.

This should be the true test of any reputable company that wants the customer to be satisfied that they have purchased a quality product.

You (should) get what you pay for!
 
Well said Ian.

As the starting post of this thread indicates, the FL line is a mixed bag. The optics are VERY impressive but what they're housed in is somewhat crude IMO. I could have bought an 8x32 for COST (wholesale) last year but ended up spending several hundred dollars more for an 8x32 Ultravid because of the Zeiss's flimsy and cheap feeling and its diopter.

Zeiss needs to rethink the FL...
 
angelo225544 said:
Thank you, Mr. Ingraham, for your thoughtful response. I think we are all in agreement that Zeiss has succeeded in expanding the optical envelope with its use of FL glass - at least in terms of controlling chromatic abberation - and that the 7x42 is the finest of the FL's. I think my use of the term "flare" may have led to some confusion, so I will attempt to define the problem more accurately. The phenomenon I refer to is light spilling into dark areas of the image - specifically in backlit situations - where there is a loss of contrast in the relatively dark subject. I am always aware of light polluting the shaded (blackest) portion of the image produced by Zeiss binoculars. This phenominon simply does not occur with Leica's Ultravid, and happens far less with Swarovski's EL and SLC Neu. As a photographer, I am keenly (perhaps overly) sensitive to this, because it is one of the hallmarks of a poorly designed camera lens (optical system). Even those binoculars that have slightly more chromatic abberation than the FL, have significatly less of this contrast destroying light spillage. So while the FL does provide the finest image currently available - it can only do so under ideal circumstances - which is most unfortunate in real-world applications.
Secondly, my $10 Casio wristwatch is more accurate than my $10,000 Rolex - but the Rolex displays a level of engineering and craftsmanship that makes it a tactile and esthetic joy to use - while the Casio is simply a molded hunk of plastic. It is an equivalent tactile and esthetic step from an Ultravid or Swarovski EL or SLC to a Zeiss FL. Since the 7x42 FL is so superior to the 10x42 FL, I concluded that the envelope that Zeiss is using is simply not capable of providing the greater precision necessary in a 10x binocular. Specifically, the diopter control - which is satisfactory in the 7x42 - feels unacceptably coarse and crude in the 10x42.

Again, thoughtful and well stated.

I see perhaps the issue with flare.

What you see as a fault, I see as a benefit, and attribute to a different source. Because the shadowed areas of the image are "lighter", you can see more detail in the shadows in the FL image (to my eye)...that does, however, decrease the apparent contrast between the shadowed areas and the background. The image though other binoculars has more "snap" than the image through the FLs, and apparently higher contrast.

However, I don't think the brightness in the shadows in the FLs is the result of "false light" (flare in your terms). I think it is the result of an overall brighter image and an extended contrast range. The image in other binoculars, after using the FLs for 2 years, looks "compressed", artificially darkened, with a restricted contrast range. It looks "stopped down". The shadows are blacker (with less detail) and the highlights and lights are suppressed.

The image through the competition is, perhaps, initially easier on the eye, and it certainly looks more "binocular-like", but I have come to appreciate the full contrast range and the extra brightness of the FLs, especially in back-lit and low light situations. To my eye, nothing opens shadow, and nothing penetrates dusk and dawn and gloom, like the FLs.

It is a very different image, and one that can take some getting used to, but, to my eye, it is a superior image, even under, especially under, the worst lighting conditions.

As to the quality feel issue, I know what you mean. Personally I rate performance over feel, functionality over absolute precision. That does not mean that I don't appreciate a product that supplies both, but, as I said in the first post, any product will always be a study in cost/benefit analysis. To me the FLs provide the level of performance and functionality (unbeatable optics and functional mechanics) that make them the best of the currently available binoculars (and that by a good margin).

Then too, I can understand and support the use of GFRP in the body, since I know its benefits (bounce vs bend, weight, thermal stability, etc.) far outweigh its its pedestrian "feel factor".

But that's just me...and a growing number of satisfied (dare we say delighted) FL users.

By the way, I am copying all of this discussion, negative and positive, to my colleagues in Germany, and will make each issue a topic of discussion at our next design and innovation meetings.

Thank you for being concerned enough with overall quality to have started this thread.

S. Ingraham
 
Grousemore said:
As someone who generally avoids the BINOCULARS section of Birdforum (for obvious reasons), .................................................

The only caveat being that I use them for observing birds and have no knowledge of the technicalities...

I don't know the "obvious reasons" for avoiding this forum. I have noted that many people get on it to learn binocular basics and to determine which binoculars to chose among the more economically priced varieties, and where to purchase them. This kind of give and take is valuable to a novice birder, and even to more experienced ones. One can always chose to avoid discussions that get too "fine haired."

Cordially,
;)
Bob
 
lightshedder said:
Again, thoughtful and well stated.

By the way, I am copying all of this discussion, negative and positive, to my colleagues in Germany, and will make each issue a topic of discussion at our next design and innovation meetings.

Thank you for being concerned enough with overall quality to have started this thread.

S. Ingraham
Thank you, again, Mr. Ingraham. I'm looking forward to trying the FL II.
 
Stephen,

Catagorically, my experience with a pair of 8x42FL's supports your various statements and comments 100%.

The aformentioned FL's have survived two walking safaris through rather desolate areas of east Africa as well as two trips into some remote and physically challenging sections of northern Idaho, with aplomb. Previous jaunts toasted my beloved Trinovids and a borrowed pair of SLC's. Not very scientific but impressive nonetheless. My opinion based on my personal "hard use" is that the glass fiber reinforced polymer and metal construction may in fact be superior to other materials/designs.

Did I mention the super view?
 
WmCCO-5 said:
Stephen,

Catagorically, my experience with a pair of 8x42FL's supports your various statements and comments 100%.

The aformentioned FL's have survived two walking safaris through rather desolate areas of east Africa as well as two trips into some remote and physically challenging sections of northern Idaho, with aplomb. Previous jaunts toasted my beloved Trinovids and a borrowed pair of SLC's. Not very scientific but impressive nonetheless. My opinion based on my personal "hard use" is that the glass fiber reinforced polymer and metal construction may in fact be superior to other materials/designs.

Did I mention the super view?

Your experiences as relayed are similar to my own but for one major "gripe" -- the rubber armor is vulnerable to lifting up where it meets the central focussing shaft in the rear, or slipping off at the occular end of the lens barrels. I think this is emblematic of the questionable "envelope" containing world class optics that some folks are speaking of.
 
If the original poster has had issues, then I do not discount what he says. We can only recount our own experiences.

For my part I have never seen objectional flare. All binoculars show some flare when viewing near bright light and the FL is not the best among the premium brands (I seem to recall the Nikon HG was brilliant in that respect) but I have never had problems. The construction *seems* fine to me. I use the term seems as we rarely see under the bonnet, and all we can do is judge from external appearances. I love the rubber (plastic?) armour, which is very comfortable to hold. I don't mind the use of engineering plastics, as they are light and durable, but I do wish they used metal for the external parts of the hinge purely for aesthetic reasons. As for the view, they are on a par with anything out there in my opinion, and I prefer them to anything else out there apart from the Nikon SE. Again this has to be opinion, as no binocular is perfect. The off axis softness does exist, and some will not like that. But they also have unusually low CA, and very high contrast. Suck 'em and see has to be the advice to give anyone looking to buy a binocular.

Fortunately I have never had to experience service, so I cannot comment.
 
Since it seems that this discussion may feed back into the design of future Zeiss binoculars, could I request that they continue to offer a generous range of focus adjustment?
Whilst I appreciate that it's not of importance to most people here, it's of sufficient importance to me that it took me all of a second to reject Ultravids as being optically unsuitable for me when I got my 8x42 FLs. I'm shortsighted (-6), but prefer to use binoculars without my glasses, and I'm not going to buy anything that won't focus further than 50-60m away. I don't know why it is, but Leica seem to be the worst brand in existence in this respect. It was just the same when I bought Dialyt 10x40 over Trinovid 23 years ago.

I feel that the GRP construction doesn't give the impression of quality that the Dialyt did. I agree that this may well be misleading and that they will happily cope with 20 years of hard use, but a chap in a shop has to make a decision there and then and has to rely on the impression (and hearsay).
They are lighter than the Dialyt were, but they are also a fair bit bulkier. Is this due to the GRP contruction? If so, I'm not at all sure I wouldn't prefer the reduced bulk to the increase in weight.

Optically, I'll limit myself to saying that I've never noticed any problems with flare. Due to the aforementioned shortsightedness, I haven't used any of the other premium brands for long enough to make a fair comparison.
 
Ian Latham said:
I would first like to say to Grousemore....Welcome to a FORUM!! (a meeting to discuss topics of public concern)

Thanks very much for that astute observation; I've been on this Forum (for far longer than you) both as a contributor and Moderator, so your explanation is somewhat superfluous. :brains:

In any event, I was only giving MY opinion, and solely for reasons of balance.
 
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I have yet to chime in on this thread predominantly because I have not really had anything to contribute. That has changed to an extent. I decided to finally go back to the 7x42 format and ordered a pair of the Ultravids and a pair of the FLs to compare side by side for a somewhat extended period of time before making a decision.

After some use I find myself preferring the image characteristics of the FLs over the Ultravids for all the obvious reasons that folks here typically state. I also believe I see what my Mr. Ingraham is referring to in terms of an increased contrast range in comparison to a "typical binocular view" when comparing the two. However, I am left with many of the same mixed feelings as my peers. This is my third pair of the 7x42 FLs. The first pair I sold for financial reasons at the time. The second pair I sold because they had an untolerably small sweet spot. This last pair seems much better in that regard so they appear to be keepers.

The "mixed feelings" part comes from an experience I just had today. While running to and from meetings I took both the FL and the Ultravid with me to compare at a few of the local birding spots. While eating lunch in my car I left both pairs on the front seat next to me. The sun was beating down on both binoculars and overall temperatures were in the high 60's to low 70's (car windows were open). After about 10-15 minutes I picked up the FLs to focus on a bird flitting past the car window. As I was starting to work the focus I noted that it was significantly more difficult to turn. And when I say significant I mean it was much worse than what folks were relating about those Vortex Razors.

I chalked it up to leaving it in the sun on the seat...but it really wasn't hot at all in the car especially with the windows open. So, I took them home after work and left them in the house for an hour or two. When I tried to work the focus again it seemed almost perfectly normal. It may be a bit more abrupt (sticky for lack of a better word) than before but it does not have the stiffness from earlier today.

Is this the result of the use of high grade plastics in the design or something with the lubricant utilized in the focusing mechanism?

Despite that little bit of a drawback I do believe I am going to choose them over the Ultravids. The image quality is just too good to ignore. The final test will come Sunday when I head to the local hawkwatching spot to see how each (and a few others I have in my possession) perform head to head.
 
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