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Vortex Razor HD 85mm vs Zen Ray ED2 82mm (1 Viewer)

henry link

Well-known member
Yesterday I ran into a local birder who owns a Vortex Razor HD scope. She agreed to lend it to me for a few days for testing.

I'm afraid it didn't take long to determine that this particular specimen is seriously defective. So many things are wrong that it's hard to isolate them in a star-test. Certainly coma and astigmatism are present, but when several defects are stacked on top of each other it becomes difficult to interpret the odd diffraction patterns that result. I'll try to make some star-test photos and measure the resolution, but a real review would be pointless.

Since I spent quite a lot of time with three Zen-Ray ED2 scopes last spring I thought I would try to determine just how close these very similar scopes are to each other. Unfortunately I don't have an ED2 around now, so I'm dependent on memory, photos and measurements. My initial impression is that, despite the design similarities, the scopes are not quite identical twins. It's as if the very same design specifications had been turned over to two different manufacturers, resulting in slight differences in parts and materials even though the final products are similar. I can say that the Vortex 20-60x zoom eyepiece is another direct copy of the Swarovski 20-60x zoom, but the bayonet mount is just enough different from the Swarovski bayonet so that my 30x Swarovski eyepiece would not rotate far enough for a secure fit on the Vortex scope.

I'll be writing more about this scope over the next few days as time allows. In the meantime I wonder if some Zen-Ray owners could have a look at the photo of the Vortex prism shelf and focusing shaft below. My recollection is that the equivalent Zen-Ray parts are somewhat different.

Henry Link
 

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Henry...I just peeked a bit and can confirm that the parts are not the same..the whole thing is very similar but not identical.The brass rod in your pic seems to be a helicoidal ,while in my scope shows only as a cilindrical rod..a few more size and finish differences ,are also evident...
I wonder if the Razor,besides all the problems that You found,exhibits also the strange shape in the star test ,that caracterizes the ZEN ED units that have been tested here...That infamous flat side in the outer ring..
I have done some more indoor testing ,with a new artificial star I built, and this flat side in the inside focus seems even more evident to me..good news is that with this new pinhole screen, I see pretty obvious inner rings in the out of focus image...I cant make this show in pictures ,no matter how I try to adjust settings, but visually doesnt seem that Spheric Aberration is a problem in my scope..
 
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henry link said:
I wonder if some Zen-Ray owners could have a look at the photo of the Vortex prism shelf and focusing shaft below. My recollection is that the equivalent Zen-Ray parts are somewhat different.

For what I can see my Zen is different, Henry
 

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I’ve had a busy week, so I’ve only just found the time to put together some images from the tests of the Vortex Razor I borrowed last week. The star-test composite photo on the left below gives some idea of the optical defects in the unit I borrowed. As usual, the photos are much less clear than what could be seen at the eyepiece. The left side of the composite is inside of focus. I didn’t quite succeed in making the photos symmetrical, so the extra-focal photos are about two rings more out of focus than the intra-focal photos.

This is certainly not the kind of star-test you want to see from your new $1600 telescope. There are indications of pinching (which causes The diffraction disks to be irregularly shaped), astigmatism (which causes the general elongation of the diffraction disk shapes) and coma (which causes the central spot of the diffraction disks to be off-center). Both the astigmatism and coma are visible in the (not quite perfectly) focused center image. Astigmatism causes the cross shape and coma causes the point where the cross bars meet to be off-center. These are all sample defects, which will vary with each specimen. The underlying spherical and chromatic aberrations, to the extent that you can see them through the defects, appear quite similar to the aberrations of the last Zen-Ray scope I tested here: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=202943

The combination of defects and aberrations in this particular Vortex scope results in rather poor optical performance. It’s difficult to measure the resolving power of an astigmatic scope using a bar target like the USAF 1951 Test Pattern because the horizontal and vertical bars can’t be focused simultaneously. My best guess is that the resolution of the Vortex is around 2.2-2.4 arc-seconds. That’s similar to the worst Zen-Ray specimen I tested. It’s about the equivalent of a diffraction limited 50mm scope, but the image quality of an aberration limited scope like this looks even worse at high magnification than it measures. The 60x image has a very soft gauzy appearance that a 50mm diffraction limited scope with the same resolving power wouldn’t have at the same magnification.

I think that’s enough about the optical defects of this unit. It’s clearly a lemon. I’m confident there are better specimens of the Razor, but it’s impossible to say how good the best ones might be. I believe the owner plans to return the scope, even though it’s already a year old. Vortex has a lifetime warranty, which certainly should cover optical defects like these, no matter when they’re discovered.

Once again, I have to repeat my familiar refrain - buyer beware! Birding scopes from every manufacturer are subject to wide sample variation. Never assume that a good review or a brand reputation makes you safe from a lemon or, much more likely, a mediocre unit. The problem virtually all scope buyers have, including the owner of this scope, is that we don’t come to the purchase with an inherent sense of what a telescope image should look like. Even bad scopes can produce images that look good at low magnification and, of course, all telescopes produce images that look bad at high magnification if the air is very unsteady. However, when I read of a “happy” owner who believes telescopes always become useless at 60x because of air turbulence, I strongly suspect that person owns a lemon and doesn’t know it.

Besides evaluating the optics my other purpose in borrowing this Vortex scope was to try to determine how much the Vortex and Zen-ray scopes are alike in design and fabrication details. The photos of the prism shelves that appeared earlier in this thread offer some good evidence that the scopes are probably not made in the same factory. Parts and finish are clearly different.

The optical designs may also be somewhat different, if Vortex marketing information is correct. The Vortex website says that the Razor uses a triplet objective. The Zen-Ray has a four element objective. I can see that the Vortex includes a singlet positioned near the prisms, similar to the one used in the Zen-Ray and also the Pentax 80mm scope, but it’s not clear to me whether that back element is considered part of the objective in the Vortex count. If it is, then the front group must be a doublet, like the Pentax. On the other hand, if it isn’t considered part of the objective then the front group must be a triplet like the Zen-Ray. Unfortunately, I only noticed the Vortex triplet description after I had returned the scope. While I had it I didn’t look at the front elements carefully enough to say whether they form a doublet or a triplet.

The middle photo below is a composite that shows the 20x exit pupil of the Vortex at infinity focus (right) and at close focus. The difference in size is caused both by an increase in magnification at close focus and by a gradual loss of clear aperture because the focusing prism acts as an aperture stop as it moves out of its optimum position at closer distances. I measured the Vortex clear aperture at about to 85mm at infinity focus and about 72-73mm at close focus. The loss of aperture follows the same pattern as the Zen-Ray, but since the actual clear aperture of the Vortex is always a few millimeters larger across the focusing range I think its prisms must be a little larger. Another bit of evidence for larger prisms is the absence of a prism edge impinging on the objective light cone in the star-test. That was clearly visible in star-tests of all three Zen-Rays I tested. This little bit of extra clear aperture probably makes no difference at all. I found no indication on the Vortex website that the Razor uses dielectric prism coating like Zen-Ray. If the Vortex coating is silver that would probably just about cancel any brightness advantage from the slightly larger aperture. The extra aperture is also unlikely to make any difference in resolving power since these are aberration limited scopes, not diffraction limited. The resolution of either scope will be dependent on the aberrations of a particular unit.

The right photo below shows the reflection pattern of my camera’s flash returning from the lens elements of the Vortex 20-60x zoom on the left and an earlier photo I made of the Swarovski 20-60x zoom on the right. I didn’t quite get the reflections in the Vortex photo perfectly lined up like the reflections in the Swarovski photo, but it should still be clear that these have the same design formula. Externally, the Vortex and Zen-Ray versions of this eyepiece design are not very similar as to parts and finish, but the lenses look identical. The Vortex zoom is another in a growing list of Asian sourced eyepieces that appear to be exact copies of the Swarovski zoom. I would be very surprised if the RSPB/Viking and Kite versions of this scope design don’t also use the Swarovski knock-off and I’ve noticed a couple of suspiciously similar looking astronomical zoom eyepieces which have the right focal length range. All of these scopes have bayonet mounts which closely resemble the Swarovski bayonet, but curiously, some of them, like the Vortex and apparently the RSPB, are modified just enough to make them incompatible with Swarovski eyepieces.

One final difference between the Vortex and Zen-Ray is possibly the country of origin. The Zen-Ray is acknowledged to be Chinese but the Vortex has a “Made In Japan” sticker attached to the mounting foot. That sticker may mean the scope is entirely Japanese or perhaps that just enough work is done in Japan for it to qualify for the sticker.
 

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Hi Henry, As always great stuff and thanks for taking the time to test this spotter.

I was wondering if this Lady Birder had noticed something about this scope she didn't like or did you take a look through it and notice the soft image?
 
Hi Steve,

Yes, the owner did have some doubts, but not strong enough doubts to take any action. This a perfect example of a poor quality telescope that can still throw up a decent enough image below 30x. Most birders are not optics geeks, so I think there are many such bad scopes in the hands of unsuspecting owners. I know a guy whose expectations were so low that he used a very seriously defective scope for twenty years without complaint.

Henry
 
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Henry I feel sorry for someone that gets a scope like that. 85mm scope should take 60X with no problem, esp. one that costs that much.
 
Are you loosing your hope in finding a good unit to evaluate, Henry? First the 2 Zen units (plus a third one less defective), now the Vortex...it must be frustrating.
We always learn something, when we read your reviews....its very useful when you describe an aberration and point them out on your own photos.
 
It is surprising ,though,That the country of origin of the Razor is Japan..At least two other clones or copies ,of this scope ,come from China...So there must be some industry conexions between the two markets..Are the Japanese using Chinese parts for their scopes or the Chinese copying japanese designs?..Is the ZEN a Razor knock-off ?..Or are they the same scope with different brand names and slight variations...
Whatever the answer they seem to use the same guy for QC....and He should Be fired!
 
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Are you loosing your hope in finding a good unit to evaluate, Henry? First the 2 Zen units (plus a third one less defective), now the Vortex...it must be frustrating.

the third one wasn't a defective sample, the issues he noted with spherical aberration were just inherent to the design. His words: "This one turned out to be good enough for me to feel confident that its optical quality is limited by the design rather than defects or shipping damage."

it isn't surprising though that we are seeing a higher frequency of sample defects with these Chinese-made scopes, although it is troubling that the Vortex Razor (which isn't cheap!) had defects so bad. I would hope that this was a rare situation as pro reviews of the Razor scope in comparison tests have been universally positive and compared the optics to those of the "alphas", even at 60x.

We always learn something, when we read your reviews....its very useful when you describe an aberration and point them out on your own photos.

+ 1,000,000 !!! henry is the best! :t:
 
it isn't surprising though that we are seeing a higher frequency of sample defects with these Chinese-made scopes, although it is troubling that the Vortex Razor (which isn't cheap!) had defects so bad. I would hope that this was a rare situation as pro reviews of the Razor scope in comparison tests have been universally positive and compared the optics to those of the "alphas", even at 60x.

Doubtfull many pro reviews have Henry's skill set and techniques. Most sports optic reviews are just "point and shooters." For example, clear aperture less than the objective lens size seems to be a common design flaw of many short focal length optics. It is one of my pet peeves and drives me nuts when I discover it. It is SO EASY TO TEST for and yet seldom is. Even if these scopes were fine otherwise, I would not want them.

Manufacturing precision needs to increase as the lenses and prisms get larger and China's CDGM is obviously cutting corners. They are building for their home market now as well, so can rest easy that their largest customer base is ignorant of what a quality optic should "look" like. All about the Benjamins, err Renminbi.:eek!:
 
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Rick:

Good point, now that the worlds economy has slowed, things are not as rosy in
China. Some layoffs, and protests, are affecting things there also. The govt. subsidies
on manufacturing, and shipping are going to change and make things more expensive.
The issues on quality will even be more of a concern than they are now. The Chinese
"just good enough" push will be on the factory workers.

I look for the lower to midrange China made products to increase in price, but not quality.
Then look for the higher quality mid-range types in Japan, and Europe to show
the world how quality control can be managed, and will be back, and many mfrs. will
be looking there for manufacturing.

Some thoughts, so let us wait and see.

Jerry
 
Chinese made optics have serious problems regarding quality control, no need to argue about that...its obvious!!!
But should we assume that european made ones are much better!!!! I keep on finding references about defective units from some manufactors also http://leicavswarovski.wordpress.com/, although to a less degree.
Star testing is becaming more aware among birders, and owners who live happy with their lemons, because they dont have high expectations, or dont question an "high grade" performance scope, are becoming more rare.
 
Sports optics are relatively simple production goods. I think it is safer to assume these are NOT lapses in QC but are business decisions that take advantage of low consumer expectations and ignorance. Without a consumer advocate and independent testing, companies a free to do/say pretty much what they want about their products. GM made crappy cars for decades and most consumers were none the wiser. Unfortunately, I suspect there is not much demand for proper independent optics testing. Only the optical zealots like us seem to even care!8-P
 
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Thanks for the interesting link, Rui.

I don't think the author's speculation that Leica might intentionally introduce spherical under-correction to improve the appearance of bokeh is very likely. Spherical aberration always has a softening effect on the focused image, so it may be good thing in a portrait lens, but it's never a good thing in a telescope. It's more likely that a certain amount is regarded by the manufacturers as tolerable in scopes that will only be used at relatively low magnifications. Fully correcting each unit would require expensive hand work that's not considered worth the extra cost to the typical end user. A few years ago someone reported here that a Leica tech told him that 1/2 wave was the minimum standard for spherical correction in 77mm Televids. That's a very low bar for optical quality. The author was lucky to have found a fully corrected Swarovski ATM-80 HD.

I hope this thread doesn't become a platform for Vortex or Chinese scope bashing. From my experience I don't think you can buy your way out of the sample variation problem in mass produced birding scopes. If you spend twice as much as the cost of the Vortex your chances of getting a good scope may improve somewhat, but the lemon percentage will still be well above zero. Some knowledge of how to evaluate optics and a good dealer return policy are the best defenses.
 
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I would assume that they are better in that regard..definitely...If You are talking about high end instruments,either from Europe ,or Japan...If You have held a top end Nikon,or Zeiss or Swaro ,The build quality is so evident ,that even if a lemon or defective unit slips through the cracks ,there is an obvious aim to make the thing right,not only make it LOOK right.(not only optics,but mechanic ,finish etc).As far as I know ,there is NOT such an aim to that level of quality coming from China..not because they are not able(Nikon makes a bunch of good quality models ,including the ED50,in China)but because they probably have other market in mind..fast production at low cost .The prices are going to be determined for what We are willing to pay to importers..
A Brand name that develops and sells high end instruments,can have other lesser lines to take care of lower ends of the Market,but there is something about their prestige that can not be so obviously compromised as this particular Chinese optics Industry Do . After all not even brand their products or serial number them (Post War Japanese manufacturers always had serial numbers,manufacturer seal AND japanese Quality control sticker..remember the PASSED?)
 
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