Pipit for discussion (1 Viewer)

Mike Pennington · Feb 23, 2005

CJW said:
Excellent reply Mike. A lesser person would have lost their rag.
I still think field observations are going to be very important in the 'debate' and that Hell will freeze over before we get any useful ringing recovery data.

AFAIK it was ringing data (colour-ring sightings) that first proved that wintering birds in SE England (at least) were littoralis. Colour-ringing in the IoM might just reveal that the strange-looking birds disappear in summer but it would still prove something (in combination with field observations of course!).

Nutcracker · Feb 23, 2005

Mike Pennington said:
5:1!! Where does that figure come from. It may be true for (eastern?)England but I'm pretty sure its does not hold for Britain.

The Atlas of European Breeding Birds.

Populations:
Norway - about 300,000 pairs
UK - about 30,000 pairs

The Norwegian population is entirely or almost entirely migratory; if only half of them winter in Britain (the other half from Netherlands to Spain), that gives you 5:1 for Britain overall.

For the British mainland east coast, the ratio is probably more like 10:1, or 100:1 once you're south of Bempton (since there's almost no resident breeding petrosus south of there).

Shetland (along with Orkney and the Hebrides) are probably unique in Britain in being the only areas where petrosus will be the more numerous of the two.

Northumberland has quite a lot of rocky coast which is inhabited by Ropits in winter which 'turn into' littoralis in spring and disappear in the summer. The county breeding petrosus population is only about 60 pairs, of which half are on the Farnes

Binocularface · Feb 23, 2005

CJW said:
That's typical of the guesswork we hear all the time.
I reckon we get to see more Rock Pipits, throughout the year, than any other region in the British Isles and the increase in numbers from late September onwards is quite dramatic. Many of these 'incoming' birds, I would say, are littoralis.
None of our resident birds EVER show a combination of such prominent supers, white outer TFs and reduced breast smudging.

To be fair Chris, opinions both sides of the fence are pretty much based on guess work to a lesser or greater degree.

I doubt that many people would disagree that littoralis occur in fairly good numbers during the winter in the UK. I would also suggest that most people agree that petrosus are fairly sedentry in the UK. So most (if not all) Rock Pipits observed away from typical petrosus habitat during winter in the UK are probably littoralis.
However these opinions can only be seen as educated opinions/guesses and not fact until these birds can be clearly identified to a sub-specific level.
As I have previously mentioned, I am not confident that during winter these birds can be clearly identified. So IMHO suggesting anything other than 'shows characteristics of littoralis/petrosus would be inaccurate.
Mike's suggestion of a ringing programme of these birds would certainly be useful in identifying these wintering birds. It would be interesting also to carryout work on vocalisation.
Roll on March, at least ones has some chance of identifying these birds once they are in transitional states of moult!

ATB
Tristan

CJW · Feb 23, 2005

Nutcracker said:
UK - about 30,000 pairs

So Mike's figure of 12% means that Shetland has up to 4,300 breeding pairs? Seems an awful lot.

Nutcracker · Feb 23, 2005

CJW said:
So Mike's figure of 12% means that Shetland has up to 4,300 breeding pairs? Seems an awful lot.

Hi Chris,

I reckon that's reasonable, given that Shetland has 1,450km of coastline, and most of it is suitable breeding habitat; breeding density is reported as up to 5-6 pairs per km of suitable habitat in Britain.

Mike Pennington · Feb 23, 2005

Nutcracker said:
Hi Chris,

I reckon that's reasonable, given that Shetland has 1,450km of coastline, and most of it is suitable breeding habitat; breeding density is reported as up to 5-6 pairs per km of suitable habitat in Britain.

The admittedly limited survey data give densities of 2-6 prs per kilometre, which would give 3000-9000 pairs.

A survey of Fetlar (c. 1/40 of the land area of Shetland and with a good mix of high and low coast) gave an estimate of 150 pairs (which I think might be a bit low if anything). Multiplying that by 40 gives 6000 pairs.

The data from the Shetland tetrad-based Breeding Bird Survey gave a figure of 2000-4000 pairs. Although this was also limited data, we took this as the best estimate. Hence the 6%-12%.

Darrell Clegg · Feb 23, 2005

My theory that most birds are littoralis is based on personal observation, but it is fascinating to read in the Migration Atlas that outside of Orkney and Shetland only 3 petrosus have ever been recovered more than 100km from their ringing site. Especially interesting is the fact that out of 2,000 ringed on Skokholm, not a single long-distance recovery has been reported.
I have spent many hours watching Rock Pipits on a 200m stretch of coast at Looe for the past few winters and have got to know the birds and their movements very well. Pipits are not recorded between April and July. Two or three return at the end of the month, and are joined in September by the main wintering group. 30 - 40 birds then remain until the begining of March when numbers start to dwindle, and the final few birds leave at the end of the month.

I assume that the first few birds are local petrosus and the main group are littoralis I know that littoralis occur there in winter because for the past two years there has been a bird ringed 20/9/03 Onsala,Nidingen, Halland Sweden. This bird arrived at the same time as the majority of the wintering birds - which is why I surmise that most of the birds here are littoralis

In March many of the remaining birds are coming into breeding plumage. Last year 7 of the 13 remaining birds on 14th March could be identified as littoralis I've included a couple of photos - including one of that pipit taken on 27.03.04

Darrell

Nutcracker · Feb 23, 2005

Hi Darrell,

So that gives you a likely ratio of about 10-15 littoralis to 1 petrosus at Looe?

Jane Turner · Feb 25, 2005

Nutcracker said:
Plenty of littoralis breed on rocky shores - most of the 300,000-strong Norwegian population, and quite a few of the Swedish, they're not all on muddy Baltic shores!

Given the relative population sizes, it's likely that littoralis outnumbers petrosus by about 5:1 in Britain in winter. We ought to be more concerned about trying to identify definite petrosus! (not sure if that can be done in winter, though)

I know.... my point was I've never seen a petrosus that wasn't glued to a rocky shore. There does seem to be a wintering preference towards salt marsh in the more spectacularly littoralisy birds

Ghostly Vision · Feb 25, 2005

Very interesting post, Darrell, and also very interesting pics. The left hand one looks a classic littoralis, the right hand one looks a classic petrosus.

Any comments now Chris on whether you think littoralis can be id'd in wp?

Sean

Mike Pennington · Feb 25, 2005

Jane Turner said:
I know.... my point was I've never seen a petrosus that wasn't glued to a rocky shore. There does seem to be a wintering preference towards salt marsh in the more spectacularly littoralisy birds

In Shetland, petrosus moves inland and can be found in all sorts of habitats in winter. One of its old Shetland names was Midden Ful, the bird of the midden, due to its habit of feeding around dumps or dungpiles around crofts.

But I totally accept CJW's comments earlier that the Shetland situation is totally different to naywhere else in Britain.

CJW · Mar 8, 2005

Sorry to revive this thread but, I find the whole subject fascinating.

Ghostly Vision said:
Any comments now Chris on whether you think littoralis can be id'd in wp?

Yes, Sean. I think some of them can.
That said, I've just been watching a flock of circa 50+ birds on a local (rocky) beach. They were getting up and flying round the small bay and then landing back on the beach - just as you would expect a migrant flock to behave. I didn't see a single one amongst them that I could say was a definite littoralis (although some of them had subtle supers and obvious pinky/peach flushing on the upperbreast/throat).
As an aside, last Wednesday, I found a summer-plumaged Water Pipit in the same(ish) area. I was surprised to see a bird in such advanced plumaged so early in the year.

HH75 · Mar 8, 2005

Hi Chris,
Regarding your 'Water Pipit', why is it not a littoralis Rock Pipit? While it is difficult to be sure solely based on those pics, the mantle seems a bit grey-toned for Water Pipit, and the flank streaking is also quite strong. The habitat would arguably also be better for littoralis, though I concede that Water Pipit can be seen in similar areas, particularly in spring, it seems.
Harry

Edward woodwood · Mar 8, 2005

the mantle looks a bit off for a Wapit and not very brown but I wasn't there Chris and photos as we all know can be less than helpful at times

Tim

CJW · Mar 8, 2005

No problem chaps.
The breast was completely unstreaked with a strong peachy/pink colour, white outer TFs and, as you have commented on it, what the photos don't show is that the head was greyer than the brown mantle, giving a distinct contrast between the two.
Unfortunately, what you also can't see in the photo is that it was taken at the edge of a large patch of rough grassland alongside the rocky shore which the bird kept disappearing into and was loathe to leave.

Jane Turner · Mar 8, 2005

Have to say on those pics I'fd have to say why isn't it a Rockit too! Looking forwards to the big tides on Friday. Should be 500 or so Rockits and Wapits to confuse me!

CJW · Mar 8, 2005

Jane Turner said:
Have to say on those pics I'fd have to say why isn't it a Rockit too!

Just goes to show that we shouldn't use dodgy photographs for identification purposes.

Jane Turner · Mar 8, 2005

I've seen Rockits with unstreaked vinous washed upper breasts.... white outer TF and contrasting Grey heads... just not all on the same bird....

Mike Pennington · Mar 8, 2005

Jane Turner said:
I've seen Rockits with unstreaked vinous washed upper breasts.... white outer TF and contrasting Grey heads... just not all on the same bird....

I join those would have passed this bird over as a Scandy Rockit - the flanks in particular look very streaked in the photos.

While we're on the subject of Rockits, here is what I belive to be a local bird from Shetland. With the slightly more ochreous colour and smudgy streaking you can see why Shetland birds are sometimes separated as kleinschmidti compared for example to the recent photo of an Isle of Man bird on Chris's site.

http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/43245/sort/1/cat/500/page/1

Jane Turner · Mar 9, 2005

And... assuming it does have a nearly unstreaked vinous breast...and is therefore in summer plumage, the mantle looks pretty streaky too.

Nice bird Mike...

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