Pipit for discussion (1 Viewer)

CJW · Mar 9, 2005

I think, perhaps, it was more 'attaining' sum plum rather than full sum plum

Jane Turner · Mar 9, 2005

from memory Chris... on Wapits, the upper breast is usually the last sum plum feature to appear... I spent indecent amounts of time watching them come into breeding plumage at Neston in the early 80's.

Don't suppose it was calling? I hear a distinct difference between Wapit and Rockit... about as distinct as that between alba and yarelli wagtails? Rockit has a slightly lispier fisst, Wapit a more clipped zinc

CJW · Mar 9, 2005

Didn't hear it call. I can't separate them on call anyways (too many years listening to loud rock music!).

Jane Turner · Mar 9, 2005

My ex could never hear Tree Pipits overhead for the same reason!

Ghostly Vision · Mar 9, 2005

Hi

Posted a pic of a bird taken by a friend, unfortunately I didn't ask him first. Subsequent posts may now make no sense - apologies.

Sean

Jane Turner · Mar 9, 2005

its a pipit!

Its either a well marked littoralis or a poor wapit. I'd really want it to have whiter wing bars to be a cast iron wapit. It also has pretty heavily streaked flanks. Really need to see the extent of white in the second outermost TF to be sure.. but I'd lean towards rockit on plumage. That said it was a quite Wapit like character...

I think that is I don't rightly know and I'd like to see it in the field to be surer!

Brian Stone · Mar 9, 2005

Do the legs provide a clue? Look rather pale for Rock Pipit to me.

Jane Turner · Mar 9, 2005

The trouble is Brian Rockits, especially scandi ones can be quite pale-legged...at least a sort of reddy-brown like this bird

Ghostly Vision · Mar 9, 2005

On the original photo, the leg colour is a distinctively bright orangey pink, though the bright sunlight may be enhancing this. The breast also has a clearly distinct pale pinkish to it.

Just goes to show how tricky these are....

Any more comments from others would be welcomed, as this bird has still not been sorted out.

Sean

Jane Turner · Mar 9, 2005

Sean I think its really hard to prove a lot of Water Pipits.... In a sense the debate of where does petrosus end and littoralis start is the same debate with littoralis and spinoletta. Its just with spinoletta split as a different species now there is more pressure to be conclusive. Need to see the pattern of white in the 2nd outermost TF I'm afraid, its just about the only 100% reliable feature.

Jane Turner · Mar 9, 2005

http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3665

http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3662

these are presumed littoralis in autumn with paler than typical legs.

The Hannafore (presumed littoralis) pipit had bright pink legs as I recall

edit: see for yourself http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4666

CJW · Mar 9, 2005

Ghostly Vision said:
Hi

This bird was photographed by a friend a couple of weeks ago, in Cumbria.

Anyone have any comments?

Sean

This bird is nearly identical to the bird I put down as Water Pipit last week (mine had a no breast streaking and a greyer head, but that could have been down the 2 weeks time difference between photos).
I know we need to be careful when ID-ing from photos, but I wouldn't hesitate to say this is a Wapit. But then, I am always a bit "ID-hasty"!

Stephen Dunstan · Mar 9, 2005

Sean,

Just out of interest where abouts in Cumbria? I am going through pipits in South Cumbria on Saturday.

I would lean towards that bird being a Water Pipit, and that would probably be a result for your friend. The Cumbrian Records Panel when rejecting a partial sum plum littoralis of mine last year indicated that they don't think littoralis is safely identifiable in any plumage. They are receiving all records with photos to lie on file.

Stephen.

Stephen Dunstan · Mar 9, 2005

Here are shots of that bird including outertail.

Stephen.

Stephen Dunstan · Mar 9, 2005

And with reference to earlier discussion on this thread note the pale legs in a part of the world where littoralis isn't thought to occur!

CJW · Mar 9, 2005

Stephen Dunstan said:
Here are shots of that bird including outertail.

Stephen.

Now THAT's a littoralis!

Jane Turner · Mar 9, 2005

CJW said:
Now THAT's a littoralis!

allegedly

Mike Pennington · Mar 9, 2005

Jane Turner said:
allegedly

Well, I'd accept it.

For further interest, here are some scans of slides of a Water Pipit, caught at a classic watercress bed site in Kent in December 1985.

Darrell Clegg · Mar 9, 2005

I went out to Hannafore today and took some video of a couple of birds. There are only three Pipits left at the site, an indeterminate bird - a known littoralis and the (in)famous Hannafore Pipit.

Here are three grabs of the littoralis ringed in Sweden in Sept 03 as well as a photo of the Hannafore Pipit.

The littoralis has obvious grey scapulars and the mantle is going the same way. It is also attaining a pink flush, and the outer tail feather is white. The Hannafore Pipit is looking a bit scruffy so I expect his breeding plumage to start appearing any day now. The complete eye-ring, pink legs and huge super are still very noticable - as is the more golden Mipit tone to the plumage.

Darrell

Nutcracker · Mar 9, 2005

Stephen Dunstan said:
The Cumbrian Records Panel ..... indicated that they don't think littoralis is safely identifiable in any plumage. They are receiving all records with photos to lie on file.

Bit absurd, since the BTO New Breeding Atlas shows there's only about 3 sites in the whole of Cumbria where petrosus breeds - corollary, probably 90% of Cumbria's wintering Ropits are likely to be littoralis

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