• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Marsh Reed? (1 Viewer)

hannu said:
So Alsirhan, do you have any comment ?

It was very educative discussion I must thank all the people who participated in this discussion specially Jane who insisted that the bird is Olly and Hannu who continued the search and elaborated many identification issues and to the rest, Ghostly Vision, Darrell Clegg, Tim Allwood, Janj, Sumit, Klant, London Birder and Andrew whitehouse.
Finally I must mention one thing that made the bill to appear stout, this was first raised by Klant in post #36 when he mentioned "the bill appears half chopped" and was not further investigated. There seem to be two rounded drops of mud on the upper mandible just in front of the nostril that made the bill appear stout and made identification difficult at least to me.
The attached photo shows the mud drops.

Alsirhan.
 

Attachments

  • War_X71_04.jpg
    War_X71_04.jpg
    23 KB · Views: 116
Nice to hear that you agree with us, Alsirhan. I mentioned stout bill in message 9.

Jane, when we discussed about the colour of lores, we did not understand probably each other. We maybe have slightly different view on this subject. I and probably main part of finnish birders understand that lores is narrow area between eyes and the base of bill.

I must specify the finnish terms for the head. Probably Finnish terms are more fine than same terms in English ?
If bird have a stripe/spot in front of eye (between eyes and the base of bill), we have term 'lore-stripe/spot' (translated direct from Finnish). If bird have a stripe behind the eye, but not in front of eye, we call this 'eye-back stripe'.
If bird have both of these stripes, we call this eye-stripe( = 'lore-stripe' + 'eye-back stripe'). So I understand that lores does not be a part of supercilium !

Latest Alsirhan's 'whole' photo (#8) shows us that bird has greyish and weak eye-stripe (indeed it appear only from front side of the head.). Also the same thing has written in my bird books. It's true that bird lores seems to be very pale from the side view and this maybe due to both weakness of that eye-stripe and the light conditions and the colour of photo. Because I saw that the bird has not 'clear' eye-stripe, I supposed that bird is Marsh warbler. But I did not regocnize that lost/dissappear of feature is quite common in certain conditions + birds, which colour are quite pale.

But I finally comment my first message about this subject:
"Marsh warbler is very good option, because
1. bird has not rufous in the rump
> this is suitable also to Hippo !
2. at least secondaries has greenish-olive fringes
> In fact it's impossible to say exactly what the colour of secondaries is !, only paler than centre of secondaries and maybe there is a panel
3. short and stout bill. pale lower mandible
> short bill > Hippo's bill variate quite much too .
> stout bill > see previous Alsirhan's message
> pale lower mandible > true, but maybe better and precise to say: yellow lm

4. Thin eyering is creamy
> In fact it's impossible to say exactly from these photos what the colour of eyering is !
5. no rufous in the supercilium
> this is suitable also to Hippo !
6. top of tertials 'overdraw' secondaries
> this is suitable also to Hippo !
7. dark brown tail
> inexact saying "
 
Last edited:
Hi Hannu,

Just to clarify the English nomenclature on the facial features:

Lores - area between bill and eye. So we'd say "dark lores" or pale lores", or maybe even "dark loral stripe".

Eye stripe = (usually) dark line running behind eye along top of ear coverts.

Neither of these form part of the supercilium, which runs above the lores and continues back over the eye stripe.

A Chiffchaff for example has a pale supercilium and dark loral line and eye stripe.

Hope this helps us all expalin better to each each other.

Thanks again for the extremely useful and clear pointers on these. This thread should go into the BF database somewhere.

GV
 
It will - next time - its in my local copy and will appear next time I update.

Found this when entering it

**Upcher's Warbler and separation from Eastern Olivaceous and Olive-tree Warblers.
 
Last edited:
Ghostly Vision said:
Hi Hannu,

Just to clarify the English nomenclature on the facial features:

Lores - area between bill and eye. So we'd say "dark lores" or pale lores", or maybe even "dark loral stripe".

Eye stripe = (usually) dark line running behind eye along top of ear coverts.

Neither of these form part of the supercilium, which runs above the lores and continues back over the eye stripe.

A Chiffchaff for example has a pale supercilium and dark loral line and eye stripe.

Hope this helps us all expalin better to each each other.

Thanks again for the extremely useful and clear pointers on these. This thread should go into the BF database somewhere.

GV

Thanks a lot for this clearing. So we have a slightly different view on the eye stripe. Your description about meaning of eye-stripe is suitable to our 'eye-back stripe'. But I must make sure from one specialist, does it right my point of view from Finnish nomenclature.
Yes, that dark loral stripe sounds better than my 'word' ;-)
But the main thing is that all you fellows understand my 'explanations'!
 
Last edited:
Jane Turner said:
Hannu - the outer t/f is broken and the tertials are worn. Despite this there are very pale tertial edges and in the last picture more than a hint of a hippolais secondary panel. The ID of southern and eastern races is hard - they are more sandy, longer-winged and smaller-billed than the birds we are used to in Europe.


Thanks Jane about the BF link of Hippolais-id !

Some data of Hippolais-warblers ( Svensson ):

Species sex wing tail
H. p. elaeica male 64-72 (67,4) 46-56,5 (51,9)
H. p. elaeica female 62-69 (65,5) 46-55 (50,6)

H. opaca male 64,5-74 (70) 52,5-61,5 (59,8)
H. opaca female 63,5-71,5 (68,3) 51-58 (55,1)

H. rama male 59-66 (62,0) 47-57 (52,9)
H. rama female 57-63 (60,2) 49-55,5 (51,6)

H. caligata male 57-65 (61,5) 40-51 (47,3)
H. caligata female 56-63,5 (59,8) 42-49 (46,4)

H. languida ?

Species Bill length (S)
H. p. elaeica 14,1-17,5 (15,9)
H. opaca 16,4-18,9 (17,6)
H. rama 14,1-16,5 (15,1)
H. caligata 12-14,5 (13,4)
H. languida ?

I'll search Upcher's Warbler's data in the evening,...
 
From BWP

pallida from Egypt similar in colour to opaca or slightly browner grey; distinctly smaller; reiseri and laeneni close in size to pallida, but wing of reiseri slightly longer and bill and tarsus of laeneni shorter. Colour of upperparts rather variable in all these 3 races, due mainly to bleaching and abrasion, and identification by colour possible only when birds compared are of same age and from same time of year: fresh birds olive or sandy, worn ones duller brown-grey; adult reiseri in fresh plumage slightly paler and less saturated grey on upperparts than in opaca, sandy tinge more pronounced, especially on forehead, crown, and hindneck; juvenile reiseri distinctly paler greyish-buff on upperparts than juvenile opaca; adult laeneni slightly paler and greyer than reiseri or pallida, especially on rump, pale fringes of flight-feathers and upper wing-coverts paler, wing more rounded.

Note this was written before the split into easterns and western olly
Polytypic. H. p. opaca Cabanis, 1851, Iberia and north-west Africa south to Anti-Atlas, Atlas Saharien, Gafsa and Gabès (Tunisia), and northern Tripolitania and Cyrenaica (Libya); reiseri Hilgert, 1908, Sahara of Algeria and Tunisia from Laghouat, Messad, and Biskra south to Ahaggar, and perhaps this race in southern Morocco, Mauritania, and Fezzan (Libya); nominate pallida (Hemprich and Ehrenberg, 1833) Egypt in Nile delta and valley, Suez Canal area, Wadi el-Natrun, Faiyum, and (perhaps this race) desert oases of western Egypt; laeneni Niethammer, 1955, Niger, central and eastern Chad, Nigeria, western Sudan, and (perhaps this race) Tibesti (northern Chad) and Nile valley of Sudan; elaeica (Lindermayer, 1843), South-east Europe and south-west Asia (this race or perhaps nominate pallida in Arabia and possibly in Eritrea and Somalia).
 
hannu said:
I agree now with Jane and she's attention "The most compelling feature:The mystery bird (right) has a hugely wide base to its bill (like a Hippo) " This is really true !

see post 5 ;)

a great feature for Olly

Hannu, Upcher's is mega distinctive in field, black uppertail, constantly waving like a shrike
 
Tim Allwood said:
see post 5 ;)

a great feature for Olly

Hannu, Upcher's is mega distinctive in field, black uppertail, constantly waving like a shrike

Tim !
Sorry, I did not understand or react you comment in post 5! :'D
In my mind, it's really difficult to say from first 3 pics, does the base of bill really wide or not ? But you have possible better and more sharp eyes !
 
Last edited:
Jane Turner said:
From BWP

pallida from Egypt similar in colour to opaca or slightly browner grey; distinctly smaller; reiseri and laeneni close in size to pallida, but wing of reiseri slightly longer and bill and tarsus of laeneni shorter. Colour of upperparts rather variable in all these 3 races, due mainly to bleaching and abrasion, and identification by colour possible only when birds compared are of same age and from same time of year: fresh birds olive or sandy, worn ones duller brown-grey; adult reiseri in fresh plumage slightly paler and less saturated grey on upperparts than in opaca, sandy tinge more pronounced, especially on forehead, crown, and hindneck; juvenile reiseri distinctly paler greyish-buff on upperparts than juvenile opaca; adult laeneni slightly paler and greyer than reiseri or pallida, especially on rump, pale fringes of flight-feathers and upper wing-coverts paler, wing more rounded.

Note this was written before the split into easterns and western olly
Polytypic. H. p. opaca Cabanis, 1851, Iberia and north-west Africa south to Anti-Atlas, Atlas Saharien, Gafsa and Gabès (Tunisia), and northern Tripolitania and Cyrenaica (Libya); reiseri Hilgert, 1908, Sahara of Algeria and Tunisia from Laghouat, Messad, and Biskra south to Ahaggar, and perhaps this race in southern Morocco, Mauritania, and Fezzan (Libya); nominate pallida (Hemprich and Ehrenberg, 1833) Egypt in Nile delta and valley, Suez Canal area, Wadi el-Natrun, Faiyum, and (perhaps this race) desert oases of western Egypt; laeneni Niethammer, 1955, Niger, central and eastern Chad, Nigeria, western Sudan, and (perhaps this race) Tibesti (northern Chad) and Nile valley of Sudan; elaeica (Lindermayer, 1843), South-east Europe and south-west Asia (this race or perhaps nominate pallida in Arabia and possibly in Eritrea and Somalia).

I underline this statement: "identification by colour possible only when birds compared are of same age and from same time of year".

Because these differences are so 'characterless', this identification of subspecies needs always capture of the bird. Only measurements can possibly confirm id. I have always wondered these ssp-descriptions and also ssp-clarification in certain species. Does it really known how big are really the interior variation of these subspecies? I mean that we can classify more ssp
than it's neccessary to authentic identification of ssp. In my mind, it's better to talk about different breeding populations (western/eastern), even the meaning of these terms are quite identical.

H. languida (Upcher's W) wing 72-81,5, bill (S) 16,0 - 21,8

H.p. elaeica have quite short bill [14,1-17,5 (15,9)], if we compare it to Upcher's W!
 
hannu said:
More Olly pics (9pics) from Norway, (same bird mentioned in post 37)

http://home.online.no/~kjetaso/bleksanger.html


Hannu ....I think these pics are for the Western Olivaceous Warbler H. opaca . . . longer bill as opposed to shorter bill of Eastern OW. H. pallida.
Here are some photos taken in Kuwait August Sept. 2005 for birds I identify as Eastern OW. H. pallida. (#9, #10 & #13) they have short and thin bill.
 

Attachments

  • Jaw_X8_04.jpg
    Jaw_X8_04.jpg
    81.7 KB · Views: 102
  • Lit_X8_31.jpg
    Lit_X8_31.jpg
    83.1 KB · Views: 97
  • Stork_X8_44.jpg
    Stork_X8_44.jpg
    69.6 KB · Views: 146
To compare with Upcher's Warbler I include the following:

#11 the one in foreground is olly, in the background is Upcher's W. note the different bill shapes Upcher's has stronger and longer bill. Olive-tree W. was (ruled out due to shorter PP.)

#12 is another one similar to #11 but with bills open.

#14 is for typical Upcher's W. in Kuwait with long tail big head.

Alsirhan.
 

Attachments

  • P_ct_X8_22.jpg
    P_ct_X8_22.jpg
    49.6 KB · Views: 178
  • P_ct_X8_24.jpg
    P_ct_X8_24.jpg
    58.7 KB · Views: 166
  • Thha_X8_077.jpg
    Thha_X8_077.jpg
    51.6 KB · Views: 260
Thanx Alsirhan !

Few pics from Spain:
Western Olivaceous Warbler - (Hippolais opaca)
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds_uploaded/6426_Spain_BlegGulbug_2005May22_03.jpg
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds_uploaded/6425_Spain_BlegGulbug_2005May22_02.jpg
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds_uploaded/6424_Spain_BlegGulbug_2005May22_01.jpg

First of all, we have to check in which areas these two subspecies really wintering !
This give us possible to estimate, does it possible to meet WOW in your area.
I have that kind of 'touch' that WOW wintering in NW-W part of Africa ??

Secondly, we have to remember that measurements variate quite much within subspecies (between both sexes and age) .

Thirdly, the colour of 1st winter (juvenile) / adult birds can be slightly different in autumn (Often young birds are warmer colour). Also some variation of colour can appear between different populations (?).

First I have to study a little bit more about the ssp id.
(JANJ, I counted to ten ;-) )

I have not field experience both of these Hippolais subspecies, but if I will travel to Israel in next April, I hope that I'll see at least EOW.

If we compare measurements of 3 species (Blyth's RW, Marsh W and Eastern Olivaceous W), the longest wing is Marsh W (68-76mm), the second EOW (62-71mm) and shortest Blyth's (58-65mm). Both EOW (15,0-17,4mm) and Blyth's (15,3-17,6) seems to be longest bill and Marsh W have slightly shortest (14,3-17,2). Wing formula is quite similar both EOW and Blyth's. There is also other differences, e.g the lenght of 1P and the amount of primaries, where are notches and emarginations.
 
Last edited:
hannu said:
Thanx Alsirhan !

Few pics from Spain:
Western Olivaceous Warbler - (Hippolais opaca)
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds_uploaded/6426_Spain_BlegGulbug_2005May22_03.jpg
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds_uploaded/6425_Spain_BlegGulbug_2005May22_02.jpg
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds_uploaded/6424_Spain_BlegGulbug_2005May22_01.jpg

First of all, we have to check in which areas these two subspecies really wintering !

If we compare measurements of 3 species (Blyth's RW, Marsh W and Eastern Olivaceous W), the longest wing is Marsh W (68-76mm), the second EOW (62-71mm) and shortest Blyth's (58-65mm). Both EOW (15,0-17,4mm) and Blyth's (15,3-17,6) seems to be longest bill and Marsh W have slightly shortest (14,3-17,2). Wing formula is quite similar both EOW and Blyth's. There is also other differences, e.g the lenght of 1P and the amount of primaries, where are notches and emarginations.

Thank for the quick reply Hannu. It appears from literature (BWP) that the race in Kuwait is either pallida or elaeica.

The status of Upcher's W. in Kuwait (BMAPT report 2004): Common passage migrant.

Upcher's W. From BWP:
migrants noted late August in Iraq (Sage 1960) and September in Baluchistan (southern Pakistan) (Ali and Ripley 1973a); large-scale passage reported late September in Seistan (eastern Iran) (Dementiev and Gladkov 1954b). Occurs chiefly August to early October in Gulf states; further south.

The status of Eastern Olivaceous Warbler in Kuwait (BMAPT report 2004): Very common passage migrant. Common summer visitor. Rare winter visitor. Breeds.
Eastern Olivaceous Warbler from BWP:
Elaeica: Probably overwinters in small numbers in Arabia, with records, e.g. in North Yemen and Gulf states (Brooks et al. 1987; F E Warr). One January record from south-west Turkey (Vittery et al. 1972).
Leaves Iraq August to early September (Moore and Boswell 1956; Marchant 1961, Marchant 1962). Regular both seasons at Azraq (Jordan) (Clarke 1980; Wallace 1982). Common and widespread in Arabia east to Masirah island off Oman, especially in autumn, with protracted passage July–November, chiefly August–September (Jennings 1981; Stagg 1985; Brooks et al. 1987; Rogers 1988; F E Warr). Recently-established breeding population in Riyadh (this race or nominate pallida) leaves mid- to late October, returning early February (Stagg 1987).
In Arabia, passage mostly from mid-March, peaking April in North Yemen (Bundy and Warr 1980; Brooks et al. 1987; Bahrain population (this race or nominate pallida) arrives 1st week of April (Gallagher and Rogers 1978). At Azraq, variation in size and colour of spring birds (Wallace 1982) suggests different populations may be involved.


Bill measurement for comparison from BWP:

Upcher's W. Bill-s (from tip to skull):
16.9-18.8 male, 16.7-18.6 female.
EOW. Bill-s (from tip to skull):
H. pallida 15.2-16.8
H. opaca 17.6-18.7 male, 17.2-18.5 female birds from Morocco
H. opaca 17.8-18.9 male, 17.8-19.0 female birds from Spain
H. elaeica 16.3-17.6 male, 16.4-17.7 female, birds from Balkan countries to Crete and western Turkey.
H. elaeica 16.0-17.6 male, 16.0-17.0 female, birds from central Anatolia and Taurus (Turkey).
H. elaeica 15.6-16.7 male, 15.7-16.2 female, birds from Levant and south-east Turkey to south-west Iran.
H. elaeica 15.6-16.5 male, birds from Turkmeniya to Uzbekistan (USSR)

Alsirhan
 
I think we can safely assume that the Norwegian bird was not opaca, but elaeica, since (amongst other differences) bill seen from above, was noted to have concave sides, conwex in opaca. H. opaca winters in West Africa, south of Sahara, Mali Sénégal , Nigeria, arraving there in October, November. One opaca in Zol, museum of Copenhagen (from 1861) claimed to have been taken in greece is unreliable according to Svensson. For separation of opaca and elaeica I´m reefering to Svensson, L.2001.
Identification of Western and Eastern Olivaceous, Booted and Syke´s Warblers. Birding World, 14:192-219.
The funny thing is that, when I look at Alsihan´s last images, the front bird seem to have the emarginations on the closed wing, not aprox at level, or slightly inside, with the longest tertial, but way outside it. In image 3 one gets a good view of the broad, and long tail of languida. The pale "wing panel" is quite obvious, as it is in the two others.
JanJ
 
Last edited:
JANJ said:
I think we can safely assume that the Norwegian bird was not opaca, but eleica, since (amongst other differences) bill seen from above, was noted to have concave sides, conwex in opaca. JanJ


Jan if you think these Norwegian birds at this link http://home.online.no/~kjetaso/bleksanger.html that have long bill are elaeica not opaca then what about the bill length elaeica bill length is only 15.6-16.7 and that of opaca is 17.6-18.7

Alsirhan.
 
Svensson gives us follow biometrics
(I trust more Svensson than any other birder, except Finnish specialist ;-) )
Bill length (Skull)
H. p. elaeica 14,1-17,5 (15,9)
H. opaca 16,4-18,9 (17,6)
So this measurement (bill lenght) overlapping very much.

The long-billed look is not any (sure) feature to id ssp opaca, but I think that your WOW candidates does not look so long-billed as the birds in my mentioned link. > addition: see post 81 - 84

Also we have not reliable and published opaca observations from the east side of Sweden-France line. So Your assumption of opaca in Kuwait seems to be quite difficult to accept in this aspect. > addition: see post 81 - 84

Your quote "the race in Kuwait is either pallida or elaeica." means that the writers of that book did not know surely the range of opaca and elaeica. I think that we know now more than at that time. So in this point of view your met birds are elaeica and languida. addition > I 'm wordblind, you really wrote pallida or elaeica, not opaca and elaeica. Sorry for that !

Also Birds of the Europe and the Middle East has written that elaeica is olive grey from the upperparts, whereas languida is almost pure grey. But in pics 11, 12 elaeica seems to be quite brownish grey from the upperparts, whereas languida is grey .

In my mind, those birds in pics 9,10,13 seems to be so EOW-type in exterior features. Structure are very similar as bird in post 11. But I have to try to describe to you, why I'm thinking in this way. I'll be back later.
 
Last edited:
I don't know, does it possible to cancel your belief. You have to prove that bird is opaca ! ;-)

According to Svensson, opaca have strong and long bill and strong legs. I think that even you think that bird is long-billed, it's not strong billed.See my opaca links.

Also the supercilum of opaca is short and it does not continue behind the eye. So also this refer that your bird is not opaca. See my opaca links.

Also Opaca has not any panel in the wings and your bird has at least weak panel.

Also there are some differences in the shape of bill from top view. Opaca does not 'swing' his tail like elaeica do. Also singing is different.
 
Warning! This thread is more than 17 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top