Best Optics-B&L or Pentax (1 Viewer)

ranburr,

Regarding this part of your post:

ranburr said:

Pentax suffers from the same problems that companies like Nikon do. ...(snip)... Instead of spending $350 on a binocular, I would suggest waiting until you have $500 and purchase a 10x42 Minox and get a quality warranty and a pair of binos that will last a lifetime.

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I don't want to start a Pentax vs. Minox war or see this thread degenerate into a heated discussion of which brand is better, but I really MUST comment on the above based on my own experience.

When I was looking for a 10X50 binocular for evening and long-range use, I had a chance to compare the Minox BR 10X52 and the Pentax SP 10X50 models side by side. I will state without any reservations or doubts of any kind that the Pentax was brighter when peering into the darker parts of the store, and when taking both pair outside (it was a seriously overcast day), I could see a noticeable difference in brightness and clarity of detail between the two... again in favor of the Pentax. This really surprised me, as I thought that if anything, the extra 2mm of objective lens size would give the Minox a slight edge in performance. I guess this is definitely a case of lens coatings and/or aspherical lens design (on the Pentax) making a difference.

Both binoculars come with a limited lifetime warranty, but both have different optical specifications as summarized below:

Eye Relief: Pentax: 22 mm, Minox: 19 mm
Field of View: Pentax: 261 ft@1000 yds., Minox: 282 ft@1000 yds.
Close Focus: Pentax: 11.5 ft, Minox: 11.82 ft
Weight: Pentax: 29.6 oz., Minox: 32.2 oz.
Size: Pentax: 170.0x132.0 mm, Minox: 170.2x132.1 mm
MSRP: Pentax: $865.00, Minox: $949.00

Other than field of view (21 ft. difference, in favor of the Minox), all other specs are in favor of the Pentax. Specifications do not tell the whole story, however, which is why I would STRONGLY urge anyone who is contemplating purchasing either pair of these binoculars to compare the two side by side... you might be surprised by the results.

Best wishes,
Bawko

Atomic Chicken, I think you misunderstood my post. I think Pentax makes some great binos and I was actually defending them. I think that the SPs are fantastic binos. What I meant was that they have such a large and varied product line, that yes some of their products are low-end, what do you really expect from prices well under $100? I think if you read a few of the previous threads you will see where I was coming from. I was using the Minox arguement not against Pentax, but rather against store brands. I can fully understand why someone might prefer the higher-end Pentax over Minox. Personally, I compared a set of Pentax SPs 10x43 to a Minox 10x42 and I prefered the Minox. All this means is that once you get to this level of quality, things get very subjective. It all goes back to testing for yourself.

ranburr

ranburr,

Yes - you are correct. I did misunderstand your post, thanks for clearing it up. I was wondering why you had previously praised the Pentax SP then recommended the Minox instead, I now understand that you were actually comparing the Minox to "store brands" and that it had nothing to do with the Pentax. Thanks for the clarification!

Best wishes,
Bawko

Atomic Chicken said:

ranburr,

Yes - you are correct. I did misunderstand your post, thanks for clearing it up. I was wondering why you had previously praised the Pentax SP then recommended the Minox instead, I now understand that you were actually comparing the Minox to "store brands" and that it had nothing to do with the Pentax. Thanks for the clarification!

Best wishes,
Bawko

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Some store brands (at least in the UK) are excellent. The Delta range from in-focus are fine value for money and I believe the Ace Optics Avian bins are good as well.

I'd guess price wise they'd compare with something like the Eagle Optics Platinum Rangers and the Celestron Nobles.

B&l

Hello Ulgah. Bausch & Lomb have simply been rebranded by Bushnell. The two ranges - Bushnell = less expensive and B&L = top prices & quality have been marketed by the same company for years but this year, the people who run the company decided to relabel the B&L models. This means the B&L Elite is now the Bushnell Elite but still the same high ( Japanese ) quality product but with RainGuard coating which Pentax do not have. Richard

ulgah said:

Birdwatchers,
Some of you that have some experience with the binoculars in question. I do know a little about these, as I read much about binocular reviews, ect. For your information, I would love to have a Zeiss FL 7x42, but at $1300, little rich for my blood!! I would like someone that has looked through, both the B&L Elite 8x42 and the Pentax DCF SP 8x43, to help me in choosing same!! I am more interested in the image than anything else. I have read that both give the great image. Mechanically, they are about the same, I’m sure the B&L is best at ergonomics, but the Pentax is not bad. That leaves, only the most important, in my eyes, the optics. I’m sure most of you can see, that B&L is dying, while Pentax is coming on!! If Pentax keeps it going, we all know that, they’ll be # one before too long!! I think they already # one in versatility. I live in a rural area, and would have to travel 150 miles to find a place I could compare same.
Thanks for your time.

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Rich N said:

I looked at a couple of my older Zeiss brochures. Neither say any of their binoculars are "waterproof". It could be the European definition of waterproof is more strict? There must be someone on this forum who has experience with the Zeiss 10x40 Classic.
At least the Zeiss UK website says the new FLs are waterproof. The mention a waterproof standard they meet.
Rich

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I believe Zeiss at some stage upped the guarantee to cover some level of waterproofing. There are posts on BirdForum from 7x42 owners that suggest they are very much on a par or better than many more recent top level designs on the issue of reliablility in difficult conditions.
The review here advises the 10x40 model had external focussing :
http://de.geocities.com/holger_merlitz/dialyt10x40.html

I just checked both the Bushnell and B & L links and I ended up at the same web site. The site no longer lists the Elites so I suspect that the line may be either gone or re-named. Pelee Wings Nature Store, probably the biggest vendor of birding optics in Canada, has Elites on for in the $600 Can. range which is about half of what they were a few years ago. I paid $969 for mine only about 18 months ago. I should say though that I'm very pleased with them. I believe that I see more birders carrying B & L or Bushnell binos that any other brands.

According to this, http://www.surfbirds.com/blogs/efaike/, Bushnell will be releasing an updated version of the Elites in 2004 under the Bushnell name. I've used both the Pentax & B&L's in the field ,and although I don't own either, if I was in the market for a new pair wouldn't hesitate to buy the B&L 8x42's. They provide a remarkably bright, sharp image, and IMHO they are underated in the high end roof category.

Ted

Ulgah:
I own a pair of Pentax DCF SP 8x43s and have been very happy with them. I considered and tested many brands including the B&L. Both are very good but one reason I chose the SPs was the weight. They are several ounces lighter than the B&L. Optically both are very good. I dropped my Pentax not long ago and broke the eyepiece. Sent them back to Pentax and they repaired them free of charge. I own Leica as well and and still use my Pentax a good deal of the time.

ulgah said:

Good question, Rich. I don't know, I just read or heard somewhere that the Classics are not totally waterproof because the focusing is not internal. I just assumed that was all Classics. Does anybody here, know? I'll have to check that out.

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The 10x40s don't have a moving bridge, but the objective lenses move. Zeiss warrants the Classics as fully waterproof.

Jason

jasonsailing said:

The 10x40s don't have a moving bridge, but the objective lenses move. Zeiss warrants the Classics as fully waterproof.

Jason

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Thank you. I appreciate the info. I just didn't see in either of my Zeiss brochures (from a few years ago) where they claimed any of their binoculars are "waterproof".

Rich

Birders,
You just gave me something more to consider. Rather than just the B&L or Pentax, the Zeiss 10x40 Classic, or maybe the 7x42 Classic is on my list. But I had better hurry, or the Pentax will be the only one available. (There are possibilities that I will hang on for awhile and save for the FL 7x42.) My only income is SS. Decisions, decisions, I am a penny pincher. LOL. Thanks Much

ranburr said:

Pentax is not coming on, they are here! Their use of ED glass in a mid-range roof has really improved their standing. Personally, I would never buy a store brand. You never know who is making it this week. Many such brands start off as a quality Japanese build, garner a good reputation and then production is quietly moved to a low bidder in China. The Pentax SPs are as good as it gets without stepping up to the Euro big three top of the line.

ranburr

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ranburr,
You said that Pentax uses ED glass in their mid-range roofs, including the DCF-SP's. I have read much about the SP's, but have not seen the ED glass claim. Where did I miss that? LOL. I know they use aspherical oculars.Thanks Much.

Birders,
Just thought I would let you know what I decided on. The B&L Elite 8x42 is on it's way to me!!

what the pros use & bino marketing

i spent a week with some very serious birders/ ornithologist. and the guys that take this seriously all had swarovski el 8.5 x 42 , 10 x 42 or the B&L Elite 8x42 or 10x42. the people that had the B&L's had bought theirs over 5 or 6 years ago. And were thinking of moving up to the EL but really enjoyed looking through my "very bright" pentax binos. the swarovski guys all had pentax as a back up. Pentax was a second choice no matter what even when it comes to scopes for these birders. swarovski are amazing but Minox, Kahles and the rest is very second rate they agreed. I look at a lot of recent bino reviews and not one ever mentions Kahles or Minox. They all mention Pentax SP, Nikon LX and of course Swarovski EL and lately the new Zeiss FL.

swarovski is still pushing the limits and right behind them is nikon and pentax. I belive B & L will eventually go away or fall in the mid range due to the selling over to bushnell.

I bought my pentax first and eventually will get a nikon or swarovski pair in the future. either way i am safe i have a great safe bet and eventually the bino view i have to look forward to will be excellent with swarovski or nikon. I am waiting for Swarovski to get rid of their slow focus problem on the EL. And then I will buy them. And i still have a great back up pair. My major complaint with Pentax is a narrow field of view.

I would stay away from Minox and Kahles, so far I've found them to be mediocre and not outstanding. I believe Minox and Kahles are secondary brands that work off marketing to everyone that wants swarovski but cant afford it. these companies let everyone know that its there company so people feel safe. the reason why there less expensive is the optics are not top notch. I believe that Zeiss in mid range are some the worst binos I've ever looked through for the price.

i believe pentax is trying to distinguish themselves to be the best optics that they can possibly make for the best price. I do not believe that to be the case with any of the other secondary companies of Leica or Swarovski.

The pentax really caught my attention when I saw a house sparrow eating a cheetoh in the parking lot. No matter what- realize that there is a compromise in every optics. And price does play a part. And we will never be satisfied and thats what created this thread, this market. So go out and look at some birds.

i hope i've helped or given some perspective.