New photographer - please help! (1 Viewer)

ellie-hey · Feb 16, 2007

I have just bought second hand Canon 350 and have a Tamron 200-500 lens. I am trying to take pictures of water birds so I went to Martin Mere to practice on some swans. It was a nice day. The Swans are all too white!! I don't know what the term is for this - but could anybody advise please on the settings for my camera and also on editing. I have been given Adobe Elements No 2.
Thank you in anticipation
Ellie

mike from ebbw · Feb 16, 2007

the term is called "blown whites".you could try underexposing by say 1 1/2 to 2 stops.or set the white balance to sunny or use spot metering.you get the same effect with a dark bird against a light background.when faced with this scenario i usually overexpose by up to 2 stops to get some feather detail otherwise the bird will just be a flat black.i still use elements 2 for all my photo editing.

IanF · Feb 16, 2007

You sure picked a tough subject to start out with. Geese or ducks would have been okay - but white Swans can be difficult to expose correctly for.

As Mike says the whites have been burnt out. The camera will have judged the exposure reading for the whole of it's view - i.e. the dark areas in the scene as well as the bright areas and picked a value somewhere in between. Unforutnately this often means that dark shadow areas carry no detail and likewise areas with a large amount of white carry no detail i.e. are 'blown'. There is nothing that can be done in software after the shot has been taken to recover that detail - it simply hasn't been recorded by the camera.

For bright white subjects like Swans, overcast conditions are better than bright sunlight as the refected light is less intense for the camera to deal with.

Have a look in your camera manual at how to set the EV compensation. It's a feature that as Mike says helps the camera to deal better with very contrasty subjects such as a white bird against a dark background or a dark bird against a bright background - so that a more accurate exposure is obtained. This exposure compensation can also be achieved by using manual metering - but using EV is a whole lot easier.

Using spot/centre weighted metering on the camera - again check the handbook for how to set it - helps to ensure that the subject in the centre of the frame is correctly exposed. I have my camera set on this all of the time for bird photos.

mike from ebbw · Feb 16, 2007

nice one ian.you described it a lot better than i put it.(had to rush,the wife was in the background nagging to go shopping)

normjackson · Feb 16, 2007

mike from ebbw said:
had to rush,the wife was in the background nagging to go shopping)

Shopping Friday evening (here in Essex at any rate) strikes me as a bit like international rugby, only much more physical and dangerous.

Roy C · Feb 16, 2007

IanF said:
You sure picked a tough subject to start out with. Geese or ducks would have been okay - but white Swans can be difficult to expose correctly for.

As Mike says the whites have been burnt out. The camera will have judged the exposure reading for the whole of it's view - i.e. the dark areas in the scene as well as the bright areas and picked a value somewhere in between. Unfortunately this often means that dark shadow areas carry no detail and likewise areas with a large amount of white carry no detail i.e. are 'blown'. There is nothing that can be done in software after the shot has been taken to recover that detail - it simply hasn't been recorded by the camera.

For bright white subjects like Swans, overcast conditions are better than bright sunlight as the reflected light is less intense for the camera to deal with.

Have a look in your camera manual at how to set the EV compensation. It's a feature that as Mike says helps the camera to deal better with very contrasty subjects such as a white bird against a dark background or a dark bird against a bright background - so that a more accurate exposure is obtained. This exposure compensation can also be achieved by using manual metering - but using EV is a whole lot easier.

Using spot/centre weighted metering on the camera - again check the handbook for how to set it - helps to ensure that the subject in the centre of the frame is correctly exposed. I have my camera set on this all of the time for bird photos.

Just a small point, but on the 350D best metering would be partial which is the nearest you have to spot (covers 9% of centre). I use this all the time for birds.

Keith Reeder · Feb 17, 2007

Editing...

In addition to the camera settings advice above, this is really when shooting RAW comes into its own.

I've lost count of the number of pictures with "borderline" highlights that I've been able to save because I used RAW.

A decent RAW converter program like Rawshooter Essentials (which I think is still available) gives you significant room to manoeuvre in pulling back exposure hotspots.

If things are really blown - and depending on the specific picture - judicious use of the "burn brush" can make a useful difference.

I don't use Elements myself, but I believe you can set the Burn brush to work only on highlights, which will tone down the blown areas without affecting any other part of the picture.

You've probably still lost the detail in the blown areas, but depending on the picture that might not matter...

ellie-hey · Feb 17, 2007

IanF said:
You sure picked a tough subject to start out with. Geese or ducks would have been okay - but white Swans can be difficult to expose correctly for.

As Mike says the whites have been burnt out. The camera will have judged the exposure reading for the whole of it's view - i.e. the dark areas in the scene as well as the bright areas and picked a value somewhere in between. Unforutnately this often means that dark shadow areas carry no detail and likewise areas with a large amount of white carry no detail i.e. are 'blown'. There is nothing that can be done in software after the shot has been taken to recover that detail - it simply hasn't been recorded by the camera.

For bright white subjects like Swans, overcast conditions are better than bright sunlight as the refected light is less intense for the camera to deal with.

Have a look in your camera manual at how to set the EV compensation. It's a feature that as Mike says helps the camera to deal better with very contrasty subjects such as a white bird against a dark background or a dark bird against a bright background - so that a more accurate exposure is obtained. This exposure compensation can also be achieved by using manual metering - but using EV is a whole lot easier.

Using spot/centre weighted metering on the camera - again check the handbook for how to set it - helps to ensure that the subject in the centre of the frame is correctly exposed. I have my camera set on this all of the time for bird photos.

Thank you to you all for the very helpful replies. I have managed to alter the metering and have found the exposure compensation, and will try with that again. I had the same problem with sanderling - I am going to attach one and it is an awful photograph compared to what I see on this website - but again it is too white.

Perhaps I will try Raw when I am more confident with editing with Photoshop - I haven't been able to use the healing brush - but it does take time!!

IanF · Feb 17, 2007

ellie-hey said:
Thank you to you all for the very helpful replies. I have managed to alter the metering and have found the exposure compensation, and will try with that again. I had the same problem with sanderling - I am going to attach one and it is an awful photograph compared to what I see on this website - but again it is too white.

Perhaps I will try Raw when I am more confident with editing with Photoshop - I haven't been able to use the healing brush - but it does take time!!

The whites are a too well blown in the Sanderling to even consider using the healing brush.

Wise decision about RAW files. To be honest I'd forget about RAW for the moment at least. I seldom ever use RAW myself. It can help with correcting exposure errors but it's time consuming and you have to have a good idea about what you're doing. Even if the Sanderling had been taken in RAW, I doubt much could have been done.

It's far better practice to concentrate on getting the expsoure right at the time of taking the photo and then make minor adjustments with the software. Using EV compensation isn't perfect as it takes a bit of practice, but you can get decent results. For the Sanderling with it being so well lit by sunlight you will strggle to get a correct expsoure - most likely if you expose for the whites with -1.3 EV the water would come out very dark. Such bright subjects are fareasier to deal with when it's overcast - ever a light cloud cover helps.

Don't forget to set the camera to 'partial metering' as well as that will ensure a better exposure reading is taken from the centre of the frame where the bird will likely be.

ellie-hey · Feb 18, 2007

IanF said:
The whites are a too well blown in the Sanderling to even consider using the healing brush.

Wise decision about RAW files. To be honest I'd forget about RAW for the moment at least. I seldom ever use RAW myself. It can help with correcting exposure errors but it's time consuming and you have to have a good idea about what you're doing. Even if the Sanderling had been taken in RAW, I doubt much could have been done.

It's far better practice to concentrate on getting the expsoure right at the time of taking the photo and then make minor adjustments with the software. Using EV compensation isn't perfect as it takes a bit of practice, but you can get decent results. For the Sanderling with it being so well lit by sunlight you will strggle to get a correct expsoure - most likely if you expose for the whites with -1.3 EV the water would come out very dark. Such bright subjects are fareasier to deal with when it's overcast - ever a light cloud cover helps.

Don't forget to set the camera to 'partial metering' as well as that will ensure a better exposure reading is taken from the centre of the frame where the bird will likely be.

Again thank you Ian for all your helpful advice. I have now set the camera to Partial metering and will try to experiment with the exposure - at the moment I am finding it difficult to change the settings easily without looking at the camera

I am puzzled by the choosing overcast weather for the white birds - will the photograph not be less sharp and woolly if the sun is not shining. I am sorry to sound stupid.

Anyway practice makes perfect - I hope so I will try out your suggestings this week and hope to put up something better next time.]

Thanks again

Keith Reeder · Feb 18, 2007

Ellie, you're right to think that overcast weather can have that effect on your pictures - you might need to increase your ISO (and so your shutter speed) a bit in order to make up for the lower light.

IanF · Feb 18, 2007

ellie-hey said:
Again thank you Ian for all your helpful advice. I have now set the camera to Partial metering and will try to experiment with the exposure - at the moment I am finding it difficult to change the settings easily without looking at the camera

I am puzzled by the choosing overcast weather for the white birds - will the photograph not be less sharp and woolly if the sun is not shining. I am sorry to sound stupid.

Anyway practice makes perfect - I hope so I will try out your suggestings this week and hope to put up something better next time.]

Thanks again

Adjusting the EV is one setting it's worth persevering with so that it becomes second nature. I'm using the Canon 20D which allows Ev adjustment with a flik of the thumb wheel on the back of the camera so you don't even need take your eye off the bird.

Just a light cloud cover is enough to take the edge off the brilliance of the sun reflecting on the bright white of a Swan - basically you're looking for the sun to act as a neutral density filter to reduce glare. Actually most photos whatever the subject are better taken under light cloud cover as opposed to full sun as there's less contrast between the bright highlight areas and the darker shadow areas.

If the cloud is pretty heavy then yes colours come out muddy looking - not great for photos - though it's brilliant white birds we're talking about here and they're the exception. You can still take reasonable photos of white birds when it's cloudy - in fact more detail shows in the white areas. Also the birds often show better against the background as there is less contrast for the camera to deal with.

This time of year I mainly use ISO 400 even on sunny days as I find having a fast shutter speed to reduce movement is far more important than having no grain (noise) in the shot, which can be easily removed using software later.

ellie-hey · Feb 18, 2007

Thanks very much again. I am looking forward to putting everything into practice this week - so if its dullish- I shall be trying the Swans out again - and hope the results will reflect all the good advice.

nickb · Feb 18, 2007

EOS 350D manual

Hi all,

Just reading this thread with interest as I too am a novice and usually just put EOS 350D into P mode, use my new Sigma 170-500mm lens and get lucky with a few pictures and take a lot of poor ones.

I need to understand the same things covered here but dont seem to have a user manual for the camera and through the onscreen menus am struggling with metering etc. Should I have received a manual in the box or do they only offer an online internet based one ?

Thanks a lot
Nick

IanF · Feb 18, 2007

nickb said:
Hi all,

Just reading this thread with interest as I too am a novice and usually just put EOS 350D into P mode, use my new Sigma 170-500mm lens and get lucky with a few pictures and take a lot of poor ones.

I need to understand the same things covered here but dont seem to have a user manual for the camera and through the onscreen menus am struggling with metering etc. Should I have received a manual in the box or do they only offer an online internet based one ?

Thanks a lot
Nick

There should definitely have been one in the box as it explains how to access the various functions, though they don't usually go into much detail.

Keith Reeder · Feb 18, 2007

As Ian says, manuals tend only to tell you how to get at various functions, but give little in the way of education as to their use.

Now this will tell you how things work...

psilo · Feb 25, 2007

hi Nick Using P mode gives all the control to the camera and absolutely none to yourself. Read all the valuable information here and any you can find online or in books to learn all the basics of photography and get out there and practise. Only when you have some control yourself will you find that you produce more consistently keepable photos.

geordie graham · Jun 22, 2007

I have just joined this website and I am new to photography and somewhat baffled by the complexity of my Pentax K10D.I am probably like a lot of novices who when they buy a camera and lens they want to go out and take perfect shots straight away.It isn`t going to happen,if it did we would get bored quickly.I have read this thread and it has helped enormously and can hopefully go out now with the settings mentioned and hopefully get some decent shots and understand the camera better.

Graham

Keith Reeder · Jun 22, 2007

Good to know, Graham.

It's worth persevering - it's a very satisfying thing to see your first picture that makes you say "Wow! Did I take that?"

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