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Poor Leica experience (2 Viewers)

I'm seriously considering the purchase of a Leica Noctivid binocular, but my own prior poor experiences with Leica USA service and the, shall we say "attitude", of the personnel I dealt with at the time are the main stumbling blocks to my purchase! I had bought a new Ultravid 10x42BL from an excellent dealer, Eagle Optics and within a couple years the bino had developed serious focusing problems. I only mentioned the dealer because they offered to take care of sending the binocular to Leica USA for me for warranty repair which I thought was extremely kind of them! They would have handled the entire matter for me, but I figured I was capable of handling my own affairs. Little did I know that by the conclusion of the story,I would look back and wish I had taken them up on the offer. Very long story cut short. After many delays, insults, my reminding Leica I had been an often repeat customer since 1973, they finally replaced the binocular with a new one. During this same period, I had sent Leica USA service a Leitz Trinovid from 1973 for restoration bought new by me with a Lifetime Warranty. This binocular was returned to me in absolutely tragic condition with a bill and the statement that they would not honor the Lifetime Warranty because I had "lived too long".

And you might wonder why I might have some concerns about a Leica purchase? My new binoculars since this occurrence have been 2 Zeiss and 1 Swarovski.
 
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I'm seriously considering the purchase of a Leica Noctivid binocular, but my own prior poor experiences with Leica USA service and the, shall we say "attitude", of the personnel I dealt with at the time are the main stumbling blocks to my purchase! I had bought a new Ultravid 10x42BL from an excellent dealer, Eagle Optics and within a couple years the bino had developed serious focusing problems. I only mentioned the dealer because they offered to take care of sending the binocular to Leica USA for me for warranty repair which I thought was extremely kind of them! They would have handled the entire matter for me, but I figured I was capable of handling my own affairs. Little did I know that by the conclusion of the story,I would look back and wish I had taken them up on the offer. Very long story cut short. After many delays, insults, my reminding Leica I had been an often repeat customer since 1973, they finally replaced the binocular with a new one. During this same period, I had sent Leica USA service a Leitz Trinovid from 1973 for restoration bought new by me with a Lifetime Warranty. This binocular was returned to me in absolutely tragic condition with a bill and the statement that they would not honor the Lifetime Warranty because I had "lived too long".

And you might wonder why I might have some concerns about a Leica purchase? My new binoculars since this occurrence have been 2 Zeiss and 1 Swarovski.

For what its worth the accepted rating for the top three makers in terms of after sales Customer Service on this side of the pond is as follows:

1. Swarovski Optik UK
2. Leica UK
3. Zeiss UK

There is however a significant difference between 1st and 2nd place but little for 2nd and 3rd.

LGM
 
I should mention that I went as high as the Vice President for Sports Optics! That position is not currently occupied by the same person. (Thank Goodness!!) Every promise he made me was broken in one way or another. I reminded Leica that I belonged to the three largest professional ornithological organizations in the US and that I often attended meetings. Stories about poor equipment service are often the subject of post-presentation drinking bouts and dinners! (As well as the usual who's sleeping with whom!)and who's getting what grant or award and just how did they manage that! The only thing that finally got Leica off it's corporate butt was my threat of legal action which I could make because our union had a Legal Plan.
 
I should mention that I went as high as the Vice President for Sports Optics! That position is not currently occupied by the same person. (Thank Goodness!!) Every promise he made me was broken in one way or another. I reminded Leica that I belonged to the three largest professional ornithological organizations in the US and that I often attended meetings. Stories about poor equipment service are often the subject of post-presentation drinking bouts and dinners! (As well as the usual who's sleeping with whom!)and who's getting what grant or award and just how did they manage that! The only thing that finally got Leica off it's corporate butt was my threat of legal action which I could make because our union had a Legal Plan.

In my experience a careful summary of the events and issues attached to a letter sent by registered mail to the CEO or chairman of the enterprise has worked.
It seems there is usually someone attached to these offices with the clout to get action. Else it can be a long slog with repeated ineffectual 'repairs'.
 
Agreed! I hard-copied everything and left nothing to email or phone. That gave my lawyer the leverage she needed. I was about to place the order for that Noctivid and reviewed my "Leica" file and started asking myself " Do I REALLY want to take the chance?? " I have yet another Leica service horror story I have yet to mention. Leica also replaced that binocular kicking and screaming. Being recently retired, I no longer belong to a union with a Legal Plan so if it came to action again it would be on my dime 100%.
 
The focussing play problem in Leica's goes back to the Stone Age. Little wonder that those in the know shy away from them.
 
Hence an earlier post under another thread asking if it's far too early to say with certainly this has finally been nailed in the Noctivid.

It's only since I've joined this site I've realised I'm not alone in asserting there is a focusing wheel assembly design flaw in at least one Leica model that shall remain nameless.

LGM
 
I was about to place the order for that Noctivid and reviewed my "Leica" file and started asking myself " Do I REALLY want to take the chance?? "

The focussing play problem in Leica's goes back to the Stone Age. Little wonder that those in the know shy away from them.

Hence an earlier post under another thread asking if it's far too early to say with certainly this has finally been nailed in the Noctivid.
Glad this isn't turning in to hysteria. :smoke:

Yes the UVHD+ have an occasional issue with play in the focus wheel. But it must be quickly said that with the 8x42 UVHD+ I exchanged for that issue was so small as to verge on insignificance. I even posted a thread on this site asking if I should exchange them out at all. Ultimately I just figured for $2K I didn't have to put up with any slack, but that pair would of probably given me a life-time of great service.

At any rate, CameraLandNY swapped the pair out in a matter of days, and my overall experience with the UVHD+ in 7x42, 8x42, and 10x50 was excellent, I chose them over HT's, SF's, and SV's, and would do it again with all respect to those who chose others, and I upgraded in Feb to Noctivids.

In the Noctivid I've seen ever-so-slight variance in focus wheel roll resistance, but the focus wheel's even action has been consistent and outstanding across the board. My sample is small admittedly limited to five pair of which one is mine.

Leica CS in New Jersey has been polite, responsive, and even had one of their techs call me in order to discuss an issue with me even though he was on the road traveling to a trade show. I have also dealt briefly with the CS manager and the CS Sport Optics Administrator over the same issue all to complete satisfaction. I'm not throwing shade on the folks who've had difficulties, it just tends to be the bad experiences that hit social media.
 
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I have some experience with Leica and Leitz. I have a 8x42 UV HD and a 8x32 BN that both have
focusers that are good, no complaints with me. I also have a Leitz 10x40B, and its focus is very
smooth, older design.

From what I know Leica does not use grease to smooth the focuser, but they use Teflon to smooth
things out. Teflon helps your fried egg slide right out of the pan with ease.

If you want a smooth and slack free Leica, they offer 2 models that I find are very good, the 8x20
Ultravid and the current Trinovid 10x42 HD.

The Trinovid HD is made in Japan as some have reported. That is good, as they know how to design
and build optics without issues.

Jerry
 
Here is the thing with customer service beyond the warranty:

I have a pair of Zeiss 8X30 safari bins with rubber armouring but the ocular lenses are rather scratched due to over selous cleaning. To replace them I've been quoted the the following: "The eye lenses are only available as a complete unit and would cost £140.00 each to supply and fit."

I can say with 100% certainty if these were made by Swarovski they would completely refurbish them Free of Charge. That is the scale of gap in approach to customer service between the big 3.

LGM
 
Here is the thing with customer service beyond the warranty:

I have a pair of Zeiss 8X30 safari bins with rubber armouring but the ocular lenses are rather scratched due to over selous cleaning. To replace them I've been quoted the the following: "The eye lenses are only available as a complete unit and would cost £140.00 each to supply and fit."

I can say with 100% certainty if these were made by Swarovski they would completely refurbish them Free of Charge. That is the scale of gap in approach to customer service between the big 3.

LGM

If I've damaged my gear, I'd rather get a clean settlement with a repair bill.
The Swaro approach is nice, but imho it leaves a lingering feeling of obligation.
Obviously it is working very well for them and is widely praised, so most people must be very comfortable with it.
 
I can say with 100% certainty if these were made by Swarovski they would completely refurbish them Free of Charge.

LGM

Would Swarovski really repair damage caused by negligence free of charge? Really?

FWIW my experience of Lieca service has been exemplary. David Slater and Mark Symes of Lieca UK bent over backwards to sort out a problem I had recently, even though I live in Finland. (I had bought the bin in question from the U.K., but not from them). It seems that there is a great disparity in quality of service between Leica UK and Leica USA, but that's not the parent company's fault.

I was told by one of the above mentioned gentleman that all Leica repair and service work is done at their (very long established) plant in Portugal, but they did take my case straight to the German headquarters and I received a new replacement bin.
 
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Would Swarovski really repair damage caused by negligence free of charge? Really?

FWIW my experience of Lieca service has been exemplary. David Slater and Mark Symes of Lieca UK bent over backwards to sort out a problem I had recently, even though I live in Finland. (I had bought the bin in question from the U.K., but not from them). It seems that there is a great disparity in quality of service between Leica UK and Leica USA, but that's not the parent company's fault.

I was told by one of the above mentioned gentleman that all Leica repair and service work is done at their (very long established) plant in Portugal, but they did take my case straight to the German headquarters and I received a new replacement bin.

I can say from various experiences they (Swarovski) would.

To comment on Green Man's Zeiss issue:'
Zeiss has a new rule in place at CS which makes every repair up to 250,00 euro's free of charge.
That would drop your cost estimate significantB :)

On the other hand, can you blame a brand for asking repair costs for absolute no warranty issues even though an other brand chooses to do so?

Jan
 
Yep, Leica's utter disdain for their customers will be their ultimate undoing. No-one I know now will buy from them - we all took to Swaro because a) superior optics and b) excellent customer relations
Leica should hang their heads in shame
Loved the comment above...lived too long.....utterly disgusting
 
Swarovski service is very good, I have used it. But they charge for scratched lenses,
I have had them do that on an ocular lens on a 10x50 SLC. I believe it was only
a $50.00 charge.

Jerry
 
I would happily buy Leica, Zeiss or Swarovski or any other make.
I know beforehand the likely backup available.

Zeiss repaired the 15x60 f.o.c. at head office. It is very old. It was completely stripped and repaired.
On return I noticed an eyepiece element had an edge chip, correctly blackened. The eyepieces were obviously difficult to get apart. There is no effect from this edge chip.
The binocular performs beautifully.

I had a Wild 98mm f/1.4 taken apart and cleaned by Balham Optics., they also chipped an element, but I accepted this. The lens should have gone back to Wild. But the cost would be prohibitive and they may not have done the job anyway. This lens must be a nightmare to strip.

Leica have repaired things free for me in the past.

Canon repaired a secondhand broken camera that cost me £1. It works perfectly. The repair was completely free and well out of warranty.
My experience with Canon copier division is truly awful.

Swarovski have a set policy, which is fine.

When I had to deal with complaints on household items I assessed each case individually and reported back.
I was not as generous as Swarovski.
 
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If I base my judgment on what I see on this forum and a Leica camera forum I frequent, I would have to say that Leica service is highly variable. I read about excellent service after the sale, and very poor service indeed. I assume the poor service events are more likely to make it onto a forum since good service is most people's assumption when they buy a luxury product like a pair of Leica bins, so good service would generally seem unremarkable.

My own experience with Leica service is that it can be slow, but it has always been competent, polite, and reasonably priced (at least considering the original purchase price). My one surprising experience was when I sent in a set of 8x32 HD's for a bad scratch on the objective lens. The bins were about five years old at the time, and there was no question in my mind about whether this would be warranty work. It wasn't. I had thrown the bins in a bag without a cover of any kind and also put some keys in the same bag. You can guess the result. I sent the bins to Leica New Jersey myself. Don't know whether they went on to Europe or not, but the repair was made at no charge to me. I was very pleased.

As far as the focuser play in the Ultravids... I have owned perhaps five pairs of Ultravids and Ultravid HD's over the years. One of the Ultravids had serious backlash as well as being quite notchy. It was bad enough that I eventually sold them (with full disclosure). Leica had indicated that they were within specification. I suspect that was true--it was a truly bad focuser design. There were some improvements made with the HD's, and while they are still greaseless and so quite poorly damped, all my HD's were smooth. They also all had a bit of backlash, but never enough to hamper me in achieving accurate focus. My Noctivids, so far, are perfect. Very smooth, well damped, reasonably light focusing and zero backlash. Best focuser I have ever had on a pair of Leica bins, and that's really nice to be able to say as their focusers have been comparatively poor, in my judgment, for many years. I never really liked the greaseless design in the Ultravids. I'm sure it kept the focus weight consistent across a wide temperature range--the supposed benefit--but I don't use them in really cold weather, so I never noticed.
 
I can say with 100% certainty if these [ocular lenses] were made by Swarovski they would completely refurbish them Free of Charge. That is the scale of gap in approach to customer service between the big 3. LGM

Swarovski service is very good, I have used it. But they charge for scratched lenses,
I have had them do that on an ocular lens on a 10x50 SLC. I believe it was only
a $50.00 charge.
Jerry

Confidence: When you're 100% certain you're 100% wrong.

Can we dial it down around here?
 
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Would you say though that there is absolutely no delay or any kind of resistance of any sort when changing focus direction? I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, but I'd be interested in establishing whether or not, or to what extent, this issue is generic and the main differences are in people's perception, or whether there really are big differences due to sample variation. I have to admit that I find that somewhat unlikely.

Sorry it took so long to answer. Really busy weekend......:king:

I hadn't used the 7x42 UVHD+ for quite a while (it is set for my wife), but I just tried it's focus wheel earlier this evening. For the most part, I could not discern any hesitation/backlash when changing focus direction. I say "for the most part" because every now and then I thought I could discern just the slightest amount of backlash, but it was extreeeeeeemly small, if present at all. Overall, picky as I am, I think the focus wheel works just great.
 
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