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Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 18:57   #1
spocki
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Some birds in Oran, Algeria

Hello

Any help with ID is really appreciated. Habitat was pine forest scrubland close to the Med.

My own ideas were:
bird 1 - some kind of warbler
lark - crested or Thekla
bird 3 - really no idea (and sorry for bad photo)
bird 4 - blackbird, Great grey shrike, sick-looking blackbird

Cheers
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Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 19:11   #2
Simon Wates
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In the order of the photos

1. Sardinian Warbler
2. Blackbird and "Southern" Grey Shrike - the right hand Blackbird probably is just moulting.
3. A Wheatear, looks like Northern
4. Crested Lark I reckon, though I'm not very familiar with N.African Thekla's.

Last edited by Simon Wates : Thursday 12th October 2017 at 19:14.
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Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 19:16   #3
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Agreed, except wouldn't the shrike be ssp.algeriensis of Great Grey?
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Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 19:24   #4
Simon Wates
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyb39 View Post
wouldn't the shrike be ssp.algeriensis of Great Grey?
I think that's correct but I'm a little bewildered with the large grey shrike taxonomy - I wasn't sure if a ssp. of Great or Southern. From a listers point of view that could mean seeing L.meridionalis (Iberian in the Collin's) in Iberia and L.excubitor in N. Africa (or in the winter on the east coast of Britain ) I know its a complex group but is it all cleared up now - from a WP perspective?
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Old Thursday 12th October 2017, 19:45   #5
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THank you!

Do both shrikes (Great and Southern/ Iberian) overlap? Today my husband saw this one: http://chinese-poems.com/blog/?p=1663
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Old Friday 13th October 2017, 01:32   #6
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I know its a complex group but is it all cleared up now - from a WP perspective?

I don't think it's cleared up, no. As far as I can see, both IOC and Clements still group it under meridionalis, whereas HBW and Howard & Moore now class it as a race of excubitor.
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Old Friday 13th October 2017, 01:43   #7
andyb39
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Originally Posted by spocki View Post
THank you!

Do both shrikes (Great and Southern/ Iberian) overlap? Today my husband saw this one: http://chinese-poems.com/blog/?p=1663
I think Iberian always has a white brow and would be darker/dirtier and/or pinkish underneath than this one, so I'd go for algeriensis again - the range is coastal N Africa, which is where I presume you saw it.

I think my friend Rob Tovey saw some of this form in Mauritania, where it's not supposed to occur - I'll check.

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Old Friday 13th October 2017, 07:04   #8
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Agree with Andrew that both birds are algeriensis and best treated as a form of Southern Grey Shrike IMO.

Grahame

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Old Friday 13th October 2017, 08:54   #9
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Originally Posted by Grahame Walbridge View Post
Agree with Andrew that both birds are algeriensis and best treated as a form of Southern Grey Shrike IMO.

Grahame
On a genetic point of view, algeriensis is very far from meridionalis, the later being closer to... North American taxa.

Possibly together with koenigi of the Canaries, certainly elegans and probably some other African and Middle-Eastern taxa, algeriensis will definitely be classified in a species different from both excubitor and meridionalis.

http://birdingfrontiers.com/2014/01/...-grey-shrikes/
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Old Friday 13th October 2017, 09:35   #10
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The North American taxa have already been split to form Northern Shrike (IOC)/Northern Grey Shrike (HBW) L.borealis which includes invictus and borealis from N.America and mollis, funereus, sibiricus and bianchii from Asia.

And of course IOC differs from HBW and Howard & Moore in recognising Great Grey Shrike L.exhubitor which includes exhubitor and homeyeri. HBW treats Southern Grey Shrike L.meridionalis (Iberia) as a monotypic species.


Grahame

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Old Friday 13th October 2017, 09:48   #11
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On two visits to sw-ish Morocco (Sous valley and the mountains/desert to the E), I remember being surprised (nay amazed) to find ssp algeriensis, despite the name's clear meaning, applying to the birds down towards the coast, while the inland (desert) birds were ssp elegans (not that they aren't elegant of course).
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Old Friday 13th October 2017, 10:18   #12
spocki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyb39 View Post
I think Iberian always has a white brow and would be darker/dirtier and/or pinkish underneath than this one, so I'd go for algeriensis again - the range is coastal N Africa, which is where I presume you saw it.

I think my friend Rob Tovey saw some of this form in Mauritania, where it's not supposed to occur - I'll check.
Yes, correct, Oran is a coastal city, and the scrubland were I saw it is on top of a cliff just above the Med.
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Old Friday 13th October 2017, 10:19   #13
AlinoVegano
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Originally Posted by Grahame Walbridge View Post
The North American taxa have already been split to form Northern Shrike (IOC)/Northern Grey Shrike (HBW) L.borealis which includes invictus and borealis from N.America and mollis, funereus, sibiricus and bianchii from Asia.

And of course IOC differs from HBW and Howard & Moore in recognising Great Grey Shrike L.exhubitor which includes exhubitor and homeyeri. HBW treats Southern Grey Shrike L.meridionalis (Iberia) as a monotypic species.


Grahame
I'm aware of that Graham, and IOC is right to consider meridionalis as monotypic species, but they need to split the African and Middle-East taxa now. Soon coming, for sure.
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Old Friday 13th October 2017, 10:33   #14
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Originally Posted by AlinoVegano View Post
I'm aware of that Graham, and IOC is right to consider meridionalis as monotypic species, but they need to split the African and Middle-East taxa now. Soon coming, for sure.
Careful here. It is not IOC that treats meridionalis as monotypic, far from it (actually ten ssp including the nominate at the moment).
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Old Friday 13th October 2017, 10:34   #15
Grahame Walbridge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlinoVegano View Post
I'm aware of that Graham, and IOC is right to consider meridionalis as monotypic species, but they need to split the African and Middle-East taxa now. Soon coming, for sure.
I am sure you are, but the comment was not just for your benefit Alino.

Out of interest this is what the IOC have to say 'Lanius exhubitor complex (inc. taxa at present under meridionalis) requires revision inc. possible split of Asian Grey Shrike Lanius lahtora (inc. aucheri) (Svensson et al 2009, Olsson et al 2010).

So, not the final word.

Grahame
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Old Friday 13th October 2017, 14:20   #16
AlinoVegano
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Careful here. It is not IOC that treats meridionalis as monotypic, far from it (actually ten ssp including the nominate at the moment).
You are right, I just reversed the references, sorry for the confusion.
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