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Swarovski ATS HD 65 vs. Kowa TSN 603 ED (1 Viewer)

Dialyt

Dialyt

The Definitive Binocular
I have a Kowa, as per the thread title, bought in about 2007, and it is very good with the 20x and 30x eyepieces (it's a 60mm ED scope). I don't actually need a new scope... but I am daydreaming, and I am wondering, since I cannot compare side-by-side, if anyone can tell me what kind of improvements I might see if I upgraded.

I would be considering the Swaro, as per the thread title, probably with a fixed 30x eyepiece.

One advantage I can think of straightaway is better build quality and weather-sealing, but I'm not sure what the optical differences would be.
 
I don't know if this helps at all, but - having spent some time with a mate who had the 883 Kowa - i thought i might change from the ATS 65HD, as i started calling the Kowa the 'lightsabre'. However, i have reflected.... i run the ATS with the 25-50 WA zoom eyepiece and a lightweight Velbon tripod.
The principle advantage of the ATS (aside from the superb optics) is its weight and portability. If you spend long days in the field, and cover many miles, there's nothing like it. Well made, waterproof (even more so with the Kite case, which i think is much better than Swarovski's) and robust.
I don't know the smaller Kowa or how much it weighs, but I assume the 883 is pretty much top of the range, and have decided to stick with the ATS. it really is a great scope.
 
Dialyt said:
Please, if anyone has any thoughts, just share them! :t:
Click to expand...

Hi,

I can't talk about the 603 as I don't know it. My old TSN-3 with Opticron SDLv2 EP vs different ATS configs of fellow birders did not result in an acute case of upgradeditis - which I expect to contract the moment I get to look through a Kowa 883 with current zoom plus extender...

The 80mm versions were a bit brighter due to current coatings as expected, 65mm was quite a bit less bright in bad light, again as expected - aperture is king.

The main difference is the EPs, the 20-60 EP is comparable with the Opticron, the 25-50 wide is noticeably wider. On the other hand I could plug in my 30x wide EP and enjoy the same wide field but at 30x - an option not available with current Swaro gear.

The ATS 65 will give you 17% more light due to aperture plus maybe some more % due to more current coatings. Also you will probably get one of the Swaro zooms - hopefully the 25-50 wide - otherwise you might feel constricted coming from the Kowa wide EPs.

You might want to find a place which stocks opticron, buy the required o-ring for the adaption (I can give you the exact measures needed tonight - or look in the Kowa forum here) and try the SDLv2 zoom on your body for a cheap upgrade.

Joachim
 
Thanks folks for your replies. I had a look at some Barnacle geese with my Kowa a couple of weeks ago and thought "wow" because the view is superb through the Prominar ED glass. I don't *need* a new scope, not really. Except for higher magnification. I missed out on seeing a rare duck recently due to lack of mag and poor light as well.

Do you reckon the Swarovski 65 scope can cope with the new 25-50x zoom? I'd be concerned about light gathering ability. That was the reason I ditched the zoom on my Kowa TSN 603 as the 60mm objective couldn't illuminate the zoom adequately.
 
Hi,

as I pointed out the amount of light is mainly governed by the objective aperture and I'm not sure if going from 60 to 65mm will give a very noticeable increase for a lot of money.
I would recommend 80mm or so for a noticeable increase - this might be a pound more than the ATS 65 but if you look at the weight of the whole package with the tripod & head, this is not such a big deal... and with a scopac or a clone this is very easy to carry (at least in my opinion).
If budget is an issue, either look at the classifieds or maybe at some 2nd tier scopes - Opticron seems to make great scopes (at least I love my EP from them) and gets good reviews - hopefully there's a store carrying them close to you.

Regarding the zoom you ditched - was it the model shown in the ebay listing below - if yes, it wasn't your scopes fault that it didn't work well... in that case maybe try the current Kowa zoom TSE-Z9B or the Opticron SDLv2 - they are worlds apart from the old zoom.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Monokulares-...017636?hash=item3f5e0f8f24:g:-V4AAOSwyjBW3tEB

Regards,

Joachim
 
jring said:
Hi,

as I pointed out the amount of light is mainly governed by the objective aperture and I'm not sure if going from 60 to 65mm will give a very noticeable increase for a lot of money.
I would recommend 80mm or so for a noticeable increase - this might be a pound more than the ATS 65 but if you look at the weight of the whole package with the tripod & head, this is not such a big deal... and with a scopac or a clone this is very easy to carry (at least in my opinion).
If budget is an issue, either look at the classifieds or maybe at some 2nd tier scopes - Opticron seems to make great scopes (at least I love my EP from them) and gets good reviews - hopefully there's a store carrying them close to you.

Regarding the zoom you ditched - was it the model shown in the ebay listing below - if yes, it wasn't your scopes fault that it didn't work well... in that case maybe try the current Kowa zoom TSE-Z9B or the Opticron SDLv2 - they are worlds apart from the old zoom.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Monokulares-...017636?hash=item3f5e0f8f24:g:-V4AAOSwyjBW3tEB

Regards,

Joachim
Click to expand...

It's mainly cost that would keep me from going for an 80mm+ scope, but we can consider that in the future. ;-)

On my Kowa, it was the most recent zoom I had, but I was not impressed. I actually sold it on Birdforum, which I now (kind of) regret, since it was usable in good light.
 
Last edited:
Hi,

well with the current Kowa zoom it should have been sharp in the center at 60x (unlike with the vintage one) but of course at 60x we are talking about an exit pupil of 1mm as compared to your pupil size of 2mm in bright sunlight or more with less light. So it will look a lot darker than normal.

For astro use 1mm is still considered ok, but they tend to have mostly quite contrasty views... even 0.5mm is used by some as the lower limit...

An 80mm will give you 78% more light so that is probably the way to go if you want to use 60x or higher and still have a bright image.

Joachim
 
The ATS65HD can certainly cope with the 25-50 WA zoom. Obviously, as Joachim states, at the extremes (50x) you're going to reduce the amount of light available, but i've only found this to be a real problem at the edges of the day.
My birding buddy has an old Habicht Swaro 80mm with the x60 zoom, and he'll beat me for reading ring numbers on gulls etc. but it will largely depend on what birding you mainly do. My combination seems to be an excellent all-rounder, but - as always - there will be specialist situations where something bigger / zoomier will beat it.
It's true even the ATS 80mm is quite portable - the newer ATX range seems to be considerably heavier, and for that reason alone has not called to me....
As i said above, i spend a lot of time carrying the rig, and feel that this is the best set-up for that purpose.
Paddy
 
Dialyt said:
I have a Kowa, as per the thread title, bought in about 2007, and it is very good with the 20x and 30x eyepieces (it's a 60mm ED scope). I don't actually need a new scope... but I am daydreaming, and I am wondering, since I cannot compare side-by-side, if anyone can tell me what kind of improvements I might see if I upgraded.

I would be considering the Swaro, as per the thread title, probably with a fixed 30x eyepiece.

One advantage I can think of straightaway is better build quality and weather-sealing, but I'm not sure what the optical differences would be.
Click to expand...

Note that Swaro don't sell any fixed EP:s any more, but you might get one used.

Personally I think the 25-50x zoom is more flexible, and even sharper (according to some tests).

The weakness of the ATS65 HD is mostly at high mag. In good light it works ok but if the light is limited, there is a clear difference vs larger scopes. The good thing with the ATS65 is that transmission is top-notch and even in very dim light it's usable at 25x.

If buying a larger scope I would probably go for the Kowa 883 or ATX85 as you get 60x and a more significant difference in light gathering compared to a 77 or 80mm.

I think it all depends on how much you are using high mag, if you bird a lot in low light conditions and portability. Also ergonomics/handling and how the EP fits your eyes/glasses, eye relief etc. is to be considered.
 
I have the Nikon ed78 (and the 50) which I mainly use with the 38xwide lens. I am really happy with my combination but....
1 when comparing against the swaro 65 at a raptor roost, ie very poor light, the swaro coped better with the light or lack of it.
2 again against the swaro i was jealous of the magnification at eagle owl site.

Neither of these points were enough to make me consider a change but both would make me choose the swaro in preference if i was choosing from scratch....
 
rosbifs said:
I have the Nikon ed78 (and the 50) which I mainly use with the 38xwide lens. I am really happy with my combination but....
1 when comparing against the swaro 65 at a raptor roost, ie very poor light, the swaro coped better with the light or lack of it.
2 again against the swaro i was jealous of the magnification at eagle owl site.

Neither of these points were enough to make me consider a change but both would make me choose the swaro in preference if i was choosing from scratch....
Click to expand...

Hi,

which of you pentax scopes did you use when the ATS 65 showed more in bad light? With the 50 it would be expected, but with 78?

Regards,

Joachim
 
jring said:
Hi,

which of you pentax scopes did you use when the ATS 65 showed more in bad light? With the 50 it would be expected, but with 78?

Regards,

Joachim
Click to expand...

it was the nikon 78. definately had to stop using the nikon before the swaro...
 
I'd agree that at x50 the ATS65 does drop off in poor light; an 85mm will give you that bit extra. However, my friend who runs the old Habicht 80mm with a x60 zoom has an exit pupil of 1.3 at full mag - exactly the same as the 65 at x50.
It's all a compromise, as usual!
 
Swarovski ATS HD 65 vs Kowa TSN 603 ED

I have the Swaro 65 HD and the Kowa 663 ED (bought as a gift that was refused).
I know you have the 603...which I not compared.
I use the 20x50 zoom on the Swaro.
The Swaro seems slightly brighter and sharper, but unless you compare them you really would not notice.
I think sample variation plays a bigger role here.
I certainly would not turn my nose up at the Kowa but I really, really like my Swaro, almost as much for ergo's as the view and it feels lighter.
IMHO the Kowa 663 ED is a very nice scope and really an excellent value.
Note that I have not tested them with the 1951 target or my McBeth color checker.
I would see if you could find a better eyepiece for the Kowa, the Swaro is a big investment and unless you are missing ID's it might not be worth it.
Enjoy which ever scope you decide on.
Art
 
A while ago I had the 65mm Swarovski, and a friend the older 613. We both used 30x lens (his was the new Kowa) and there really wasn't much difference. The fov in both is very wide, and the images sharp and bright. In lower light the Swarovski edged the kowa in the last dregs of light, but the Kowa had the advantage of being noticeably lighter after a long day in the field. Both are superb instruments which should last a lifetime. My advice would be to keep the Kowa and treat yourself to a birding trip with the money. Optics are optics, but the experiences that you can have with nature are unique and will last a lifetime, and you won't remember what bins/scope you were using, only the moment.
Cheers
 
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