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McKinleys versus Hawthorns (1 Viewer)

And the winner is:

HAWTHORNS!

Bought a pair of used McKinleys for my dad--he really likes the Hawthorns--thought the McKs would be better, HD, etc.

No comparison--not only do the McKs NOT fit well, they are very uncomfortable.

Optically, the Hawthorns are brighter with better contrast--MUCH better contrast and color.

The McKs are going back and I am buying him his own Hawthorns for the rest of bird season.

Lesson--near ALPHA level optics can be had for under $300
 
And the winner is:

HAWTHORNS!

Bought a pair of used McKinleys for my dad--he really likes the Hawthorns--thought the McKs would be better, HD, etc.

No comparison--not only do the McKs NOT fit well, they are very uncomfortable.

Optically, the Hawthorns are brighter with better contrast--MUCH better contrast and color.

The McKs are going back and I am buying him his own Hawthorns for the rest of bird season.

Lesson--near ALPHA level optics can be had for under $300

This is a lesson that oftentimes a better fit will give a user a better experience
 
And the winner is:

HAWTHORNS!

Bought a pair of used McKinleys for my dad--he really likes the Hawthorns--thought the McKs would be better, HD, etc.

No comparison--not only do the McKs NOT fit well, they are very uncomfortable.

Optically, the Hawthorns are brighter with better contrast--MUCH better contrast and color.

The McKs are going back and I am buying him his own Hawthorns for the rest of bird season.

Lesson--near ALPHA level optics can be had for under $300

What powers are we comparing ? 7x to 8x, 8x to 8x or the 10x models .. gwen
 
Lesson--near ALPHA level optics can be had for under $300

Just wanted to add....

....assuming we are talking 7x.

I have found, by their unique nature, that many 7x binoculars can compete admirably with their alpha-costing counterparts. In one way it makes perfect sense as a 7x binocular will not magnify (pun intended) any optical inconsistencies with either design or the quality control level.

Case in point I had done a comparison of various 7x models a summer or two ago and posted about it here on the forum. In truth my eyes could concern no difference in apparent sharpness or perceived optical comfort level when comparing a 25 year old Nikon widefield 7x35 with a current Zeiss 7x42 FL.
 
7x i am guessing, that gives me an idea, ill be watching the price of Vortex Viper 6x32 HD when is about half what is now...too bad there is no 7x Viper... always like 7x
 
I had the hawthorn 7x42 for a camping trip but I have to say I am disappointed. The build quality is not what I will proudly say "made in japan". It is not better than Chinese bins I had like Bushnell Legend HD, Zen-Ray ZRS, etc. The contrast is pretty good but it may also contributes to a little more yellow/warm color in the view. The deal break is the CA, it is very obvious in the large edge area and quite noticeable. Maybe I had a bad copy but it is going back to Blackbear.com now.
 
I had the hawthorn 7x42 for a camping trip but I have to say I am disappointed. The build quality is not what I will proudly say "made in japan". It is not better than Chinese bins I had like Bushnell Legend HD, Zen-Ray ZRS, etc. The contrast is pretty good but it may also contributes to a little more yellow/warm color in the view. The deal break is the CA, it is very obvious in the large edge area and quite noticeable. Maybe I had a bad copy but it is going back to Blackbear.com now.

I got my Mckinley 8x42 last week and it was better than Hawthorn 7x42. In short there is no color bias (Hawthorn looks yellower) and the CA control is MUCH better. In terms of build quality I think the Mckinley is better but the central hinge is very tight, it is possible Hawthorn has a better QC so the quality is more consistent.
 
I just had a pair of McKinleys in my hands at Cabelas on Saturday. Had my Hawthornes there for comparison. Build quality appeared to be about the same. I will state again that you likely had a less-than-average pair of Hawthornes. My pair is an incredible value for the price and noticeably nicer than Chinese binoculars at their price point (I've owned several). Others report similar findings.

I got my Mckinley 8x42 last week and it was better than Hawthorn 7x42. In short there is no color bias (Hawthorn looks yellower) and the CA control is MUCH better. In terms of build quality I think the Mckinley is better but the central hinge is very tight, it is possible Hawthorn has a better QC so the quality is more consistent.
 
And the winner is:

HAWTHORNS!

Bought a pair of used McKinleys for my dad--he really likes the Hawthorns--thought the McKs would be better, HD, etc.

No comparison--not only do the McKs NOT fit well, they are very uncomfortable.

Optically, the Hawthorns are brighter with better contrast--MUCH better contrast and color.

The McKs are going back and I am buying him his own Hawthorns for the rest of bird season.

Lesson--near ALPHA level optics can be had for under $300

CH,

Could you elaborate about the McK's not fitting well and are uncomfortable? How so? The ergonomics or eyegonomics?

BP
 
I just had a pair of McKinleys in my hands at Cabelas on Saturday. Had my Hawthornes there for comparison. Build quality appeared to be about the same. I will state again that you likely had a less-than-average pair of Hawthornes. My pair is an incredible value for the price and noticeably nicer than Chinese binoculars at their price point (I've owned several). Others report similar findings.

I agree with most of your comments. Bins are very personal thing because everyone's eyes are different, so it is very common to hear different opinions. But I disagree with the comments regarding "Chinese made" bins as you stated again and again in this thread. I found the discrimination against Chinese made is ignorant. Things made in China vary largely from top to the bottom, but usually when you invest the same amount $$ over "Made in China" vs "Made in Japan", you will get better quality and the value is in favor of "Chinese made". I think many people appreciate that and so do the smart companies like Apple, Sony, Leupold, Zen-Ray, etc.

Made in Japan has been a symbol of quality but it is losing its edge. Over the last 2 decades, the MFG process they invented (like the Toyota way, 6 sigma) has been learned and mastered by many countries. In the global trend, the origin of the product is becoming less and less noticeable and irrelevant to the quality. And binoculars are not exceptional. In the end, it is not about the place where it is made, but about the standard it applied.
 
I agree with most of your comments. Bins are very personal thing because everyone's eyes are different, so it is very common to hear different opinions. But I disagree with the comments regarding "Chinese made" bins as you stated again and again in this thread. I found the discrimination against Chinese made is ignorant. Things made in China vary largely from top to the bottom, but usually when you invest the same amount $$ over "Made in China" vs "Made in Japan", you will get better quality and the value is in favor of "Chinese made". I think many people appreciate that and so do the smart companies like Apple, Sony, Leupold, Zen-Ray, etc.

Made in Japan has been a symbol of quality but it is losing its edge. Over the last 2 decades, the MFG process they invented (like the Toyota way, 6 sigma) has been learned and mastered by many countries. In the global trend, the origin of the product is becoming less and less noticeable and irrelevant to the quality. And binoculars are not exceptional. In the end, it is not about the place where it is made, but about the standard it applied.

Zelda,

The other reason "Made in Japan" is losing its edges is pricing. After the tsunami/earthquake, Japan shut down all but two of its 50 nuclear plants. They are now importing a lot of liquid natural gas, which costs about three times as much as dry natural gas in the U.S. So energy costs have risen, which drives up the cost of manufacturing and the cost of MIJ goods. Just check out the prices on the EDG, LXL, SE, and EII. All $100 to hundreds of dollars more than they cost before the tsunami.

With quality going up on Chinese-made optics and prices going up on MIJ products, and wages largely stagnant in the U.S., buyers who cried "Better Dead than Red" before are now taking a look at Chinese optics. The real stigma is no longer the taint of communism but that of the perception of poor quality.

Unfortunately, many mass produced items from China do have poor quality. Buy a fan from Walmart or Target and leave it on all summer and see how long it lasts. Of course, it's cheap, so you're not going to get it fixed, you throw it away and buy another one for $20. China has made the US the "Disposable Society." Where are they going to put all that crap when its built-in obsolescence expires?

However, it's true we are seeing more of what I called "Haute Chinese" optics (and other items) on Cloudy Nights about eight years ago, predicting that eventually, like the Japanese products, which when I was a kid were synonymous with "trinkets" and "baubles," would improve in quality. But AFAIK, no modern equivalent of E. W. Deming has emerged in China to lead the way. What the Chinese do is copy stuff. 60 Minutes recently aired a segment on how some Chinese companies were illegally duplicating original art and selling it. They have a large room where 50 artists are forging copies. They could do the same with manufacturing as they did with art and our satellite technology - copy them.

60 Minutes also aired a segment a couple months ago that showed middle-class Chinese were perturbed about the low quality of most Chinese products and were banding together to form an organization to advocate higher quality, better QC Chinese products.

You've probably seen some of the amazing commercial buildings in China's big cities, so it's not like they can't make "top shelf." The problem is people want cheap Chinese goods. Where there's a demand, there will be a supply to meet it. I would pay $50 for a good fan that would last for years like my old US-made and Japanese-made fans did, but they are nowhere to be found, at least not where I live, which is a rural area. Many people wouldn't pay that much for a fan. They'd rather just buy a $17-$20 fan or a $10 coffeemaker, etc, and keep replacing them as they break.

So you can't really blame the Chinese for lack of QC in cheap items, they are giving the people what they want, and in some Third World countries, $20 might be a week's wages. So they serve their purpose.

You mentioned Apple. You might remember that Apple workers in China were getting paid so low that several committed suicide so they could leave the insurance money for their families so they could have a better life. And we know what happened in Bangladesh to keep the cost of jeans and other clothing low. There's a price to pay on the other side of the world for cheap goods on this side.

I think a better life for Chinese workers and better quality products for US and European buyers are closely tied together. Better trade unions would solve both problems. But there go your $200 Chinese binoculars. Don't worry, they will be manufactured in the Philippines or Southeast Asia (except South Korea), or if wages don't go up in the U.S., the will be made here.

Brock
 
Zelda,

The other reason "Made in Japan" is losing its edges is pricing. After the tsunami/earthquake, Japan shut down all but two of its 50 nuclear plants. They are now importing a lot of liquid natural gas, which costs about three times as much as dry natural gas in the U.S. So energy costs have risen, which drives up the cost of manufacturing and the cost of MIJ goods. Just check out the prices on the EDG, LXL, SE, and EII. All $100 to hundreds of dollars more than they cost before the tsunami.

With quality going up on Chinese-made optics and prices going up on MIJ products, and wages largely stagnant in the U.S., buyers who cried "Better Dead than Red" before are now taking a look at Chinese optics. The real stigma is no longer the taint of communism but that of the perception of poor quality.

Unfortunately, many mass produced items from China do have poor quality. Buy a fan from Walmart or Target and leave it on all summer and see how long it lasts. Of course, it's cheap, so you're not going to get it fixed, you throw it away and buy another one for $20. China has made the US the "Disposable Society." Where are they going to put all that crap when its built-in obsolescence expires?

However, it's true we are seeing more of what I called "Haute Chinese" optics (and other items) on Cloudy Nights about eight years ago, predicting that eventually, like the Japanese products, which when I was a kid were synonymous with "trinkets" and "baubles," would improve in quality. But AFAIK, no modern equivalent of E. W. Deming has emerged in China to lead the way. What the Chinese do is copy stuff. 60 Minutes recently aired a segment on how some Chinese companies were illegally duplicating original art and selling it. They have a large room where 50 artists are forging copies. They could do the same with manufacturing as they did with art and our satellite technology - copy them.

60 Minutes also aired a segment a couple months ago that showed middle-class Chinese were perturbed about the low quality of most Chinese products and were banding together to form an organization to advocate higher quality, better QC Chinese products.

You've probably seen some of the amazing commercial buildings in China's big cities, so it's not like they can't make "top shelf." The problem is people want cheap Chinese goods. Where there's a demand, there will be a supply to meet it. I would pay $50 for a good fan that would last for years like my old US-made and Japanese-made fans did, but they are nowhere to be found, at least not where I live, which is a rural area. Many people wouldn't pay that much for a fan. They'd rather just buy a $17-$20 fan or a $10 coffeemaker, etc, and keep replacing them as they break.

So you can't really blame the Chinese for lack of QC in cheap items, they are giving the people what they want, and in some Third World countries, $20 might be a week's wages. So they serve their purpose.

You mentioned Apple. You might remember that Apple workers in China were getting paid so low that several committed suicide so they could leave the insurance money for their families so they could have a better life. And we know what happened in Bangladesh to keep the cost of jeans and other clothing low. There's a price to pay on the other side of the world for cheap goods on this side.

I think a better life for Chinese workers and better quality products for US and European buyers are closely tied together. Better trade unions would solve both problems. But there go your $200 Chinese binoculars. Don't worry, they will be manufactured in the Philippines or Southeast Asia (except South Korea), or if wages don't go up in the U.S., the will be made here.

Brock

Hi Brock, thank you for sharing your perspective. I feel this topic starts to drift away (my bad). Made in China is a huge topic and we can debate all night about good or bad. I don`t want to go there even I can say many of the impressions of Made in China is far from the truth. For example, the people commited suicide in Foxconn Shenzhen (Apple OEM) weren`t trying to get insurance because they DON`T have one. Also technically no insurance will cover suicide death. I think I know a little better because I worked for a US company who built factories everywhere in the world. I travelled over 50% of my time in last ten years in Asia and South America and most time was spent in factories.

I totally appreciate people share their experiences and knowledges about binoculars, but I am sick of people putting the only reason of dislike is because it is made in China. That is it.
 
My made in China McKinley BX-4 feature a much better build quality than my Made in Japan Mojave BX-3, so it really doesn't mean much, particularly when coming from a company such as Leupold with a long-standing reputation as having good customer service and quality control.

The optics of McKinley HD are not currently matched by any of the $400-600 roof prisms available, and I think they are comparable to the Conquest HD (I actually preferred the McKinley HD due to its flatter field and noticeably wider FoV). The biggest issues people have with this pair of binoculars definitely seem related to ergonomics, particularly with regards to weight and eye placement. If you find the McKinley HD fits your ergonomic preferences, eyes, and can deal with a little weight, I don't see why you'd choose anything else in the $500-1000 category.
 
My made in China McKinley BX-4 feature a much better build quality than my Made in Japan Mojave BX-3, so it really doesn't mean much, particularly when coming from a company such as Leupold with a long-standing reputation as having good customer service and quality control.

The optics of McKinley HD are not currently matched by any of the $400-600 roof prisms available, and I think they are comparable to the Conquest HD (I actually preferred the McKinley HD due to its flatter field and noticeably wider FoV). The biggest issues people have with this pair of binoculars definitely seem related to ergonomics, particularly with regards to weight and eye placement. If you find the McKinley HD fits your ergonomic preferences, eyes, and can deal with a little weight, I don't see why you'd choose anything else in the $500-1000 category.

That is what exactly I think, I don`t think optically the McKinley is really good even vs $1000 category, however the QC is suffered (mine got a large rubber debris in the eye cup). I heard Hawthorn is a remake of Mojave. The build quality of McKinley is obviously higher standard but perhaps not well controlled (Typical Chinese?), and I just don`t feel anything about the quality of Made in Japan in Hawthorn. The Hawthorn IS good, but does that beat the McKinley? Both No to build quality and optical performance. It is clearly one step down maybe even two considering it is Made in Japan (higher labor $?).
 
That is what exactly I think, I don`t think optically the McKinley is really good even vs $1000 category, however the QC is suffered (mine got a large rubber debris in the eye cup). I heard Hawthorn is a remake of Mojave. The build quality of McKinley is obviously higher standard but perhaps not well controlled (Typical Chinese?), and I just don`t feel anything about the quality of Made in Japan in Hawthorn. The Hawthorn IS good, but does that beat the McKinley? Both No to build quality and optical performance. It is clearly one step down maybe even two considering it is Made in Japan (higher labor $?).

I think less typical Chinese than typical of being built to a price requested by the distributor.

Now I do kinda think from what I have heard from friends involved in ventures using Chinese production that the second they are sure the distributor inspector has left the product specs get a little loose. But some of that is taking work that isnt really profitable in a reverse bidding war kind of way and trying to find a way to make it profitable. Cheap labor is like meth to wall street.

I used to tell my customers when in a bidding situation, if they want excellent service, then pay enough for the product that the people selling and producing can make some money. It's real hard to get motivated when you lose a few bucks with every sale and it shorts the value of the service provided. It's saying the late night calls and deliveries are worth nothing to the end user. If they are worth nothing to the end user, why should they be worth something to the service provider. I'd guess Chinese feel the same.

Sorry, I'll get off my soap box before I fall off of it. :-C
 
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Zelda,

There does seem to exist some QC issues with the McKinley HD, as I've read some units have issues with rubber eyecup armor not being properly attached, or with the focus-knob featuring some 'slack'; I did not notice either issue on the two different McKinley HD I tried in stores nor do I notice it in the pair I currently own.

The Hawthornes are a redesign/different design of the BX-2 Acadia, not BX-3 Mojave; however, from what I can tell, they are both fully multi-coated and phase corrected, though while the Mojave features 'cold mirror' (supposedly similar to dielectric) coatings on their prisms, their is no mention of prism coatings on the Hawthorne.
 
I think I read on here that the older model Leupold wA only multicoated (not all glass surfaces are multicoated) versus the newer model having full multicoating(all glass surfaces being multicoated).
 
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