stevo
Well-known member
True & you have to also realise that goshawk have had a negative impact on some raptors.Such as sparrowhawk kestrel & possibly the hobby too.
Steve.
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What additions would you introduce to our avifauna....? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter KenM
- Start date
True & you have to also realise that goshawk have had a negative impact on some raptors.Such as sparrowhawk kestrel & possibly the hobby too.
Steve.
Farnboro John
Well-known member
Not necessarily. While it is very likely that Goshawk have an impact on numbers of these birds, given that Goshawk is a natural part of the European avifauna (including the British Isles) it is a reasonable inference that in the absence of Goshawks populations of the smaller raptors reached higher levels than they would normally.
The current influence of Goshawks is normalising those populations: it is our benchmark that is at fault.
John
I disagree - there's no harm in discussing these things at all, and hypothetical conversations about this stuff is really interesting from an ecology point of view, or even a logistical one. It's like those alternative history discussions you sometimes get, like "what if so-and-so never did such-a-thing?" or "what would happen if...?" It's no less interesting just because it never happened and never will.
I'd be really interested, for example, to see just how people would propose to round up house sparrows or starlings in the US accurately and in large enough numbers to make a difference. How would they ship them back here? What would that transit look like? What would the survival rates in transit be? What would the food costs be? Where would the releases be, and where would the birds go? Would they exist happily with natives of outcompete/be outcompeted by them? Are there any parasites or diseases involved and which way would transmission of these go?
Can't be just me who's thought about this stuff, can it?
Allen S. Moore
Well-known member
You've obviously thought about it a lot more than the OP!
There's free speech and all that, but there are some things that may be best not to discuss. Given the damage caused by releases world wide I would include releases as something not worthy of consideration in any circumstance. Maybe threads like this one exist to remind us of that damage, why it is not such a good idea to release non-native species where they don't occur naturally.
KenM
Well-known member
On the grand scale of historical/and current introductions, deliberate and accidental, the latter (still continuing), with the importation of trees, shrubs, plants (vegetables/fruit) etc...all playing host to a variety of potential and actual environmentally damaging organisms..."Dutch Elm" springs to mind..to name but one!
This should put any "holier than thou" protestations into perspective, regarding any "introductions" real or imagined.
If we let slip that it is thought that Goshawks hunt Badgers in parts of Transylvania, would they decide to (re)introduce them to control Badger populations? With the tories, anything is possible.
Allen S. Moore
Well-known member
I don't know where the "holier than thou" came from at 3.48 am, but my participation in this thread is because of concern for the planet and having seen what damage introductions have caused.
As for your first point, there are more than "enough" accidental introductions to contemplate deliberate ones as well.
Larry Sweetland
Formerly 'Larry Wheatland'
Which species to introduce, and where, is an absolute no-brainer:
Southern Cassowary to inner city Bristol, and presumably other UK cities, though I'm less familiar with the habitat elsewhere. Positive reasons include:-
1. Relocated individuals would stand less chance of getting run over in Bristol than in Queensland, as the traffic is pretty much at a gridlock standstill. They could just slip between vehicles as they cross the streets on their daily journeys between fruit and veg shopfronts.
2. There would be little in the way of other species for them to impact negatively upon
3. They would act as a flagship species, promoting an interest in birds and wildlife among the gangs of roaming disaffected youth. They would learn to respect birds, as one by one they obtained quite literally, crippling views in back alleys. It would once again make birding a popular hobby amongst the young.
4. The UK is at risk of pretty soon losing the only bird species worth bothering to go and look at. The spectacular and challenging to spot Lady Amherst's Pheasant is pretty much on it's way out. The UK needs another total cracker, and Southern Cassowary more than fits the bill.
Southern Cassowary to inner city Bristol, and presumably other UK cities, though I'm less familiar with the habitat elsewhere. Positive reasons include:-
1. Relocated individuals would stand less chance of getting run over in Bristol than in Queensland, as the traffic is pretty much at a gridlock standstill. They could just slip between vehicles as they cross the streets on their daily journeys between fruit and veg shopfronts.
2. There would be little in the way of other species for them to impact negatively upon
3. They would act as a flagship species, promoting an interest in birds and wildlife among the gangs of roaming disaffected youth. They would learn to respect birds, as one by one they obtained quite literally, crippling views in back alleys. It would once again make birding a popular hobby amongst the young.
4. The UK is at risk of pretty soon losing the only bird species worth bothering to go and look at. The spectacular and challenging to spot Lady Amherst's Pheasant is pretty much on it's way out. The UK needs another total cracker, and Southern Cassowary more than fits the bill.
Pete Mella
Getting there...
Pheasants, Red-Legged Partridge...and lest I forget Chickens!...
The last is a farm animal, so I have no idea what the hell you're on about in regards to this argument, but as for the other two, Red-legged Partridges are known to dump eggs in the nests of native Grey Partridges. Captive pheasants are released by the tens of million every year (!), competing with native "game" birds and preying on species such as Smooth Snake, although there are some benefits caused by land management for them.
Seriously, I hope this thread is cheeky trolling to wind people up...
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Pete Mella
Getting there...
Lever in 'Naturalized Animals of Britain and Ireland' (2009) concludes that "...the Little Owl is one of the few actively beneficial alien animals to have become naturalized in Britain', presumably because of the pest species in its diet.
EDIT - just to clarify this doesn't validate the OP's post, as it's more a happy accident than good planning. Many other species have shown unforeseen problems down the line even though introduced with the best of intentions.
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Xenospiza
Distracted
Red-legged Partridge is (pretty much) a farm animal too – I believe the amount of birds released each year in the UK is something like 2,000,000 (with 170,000 pairs remaining to breed).
lewis20126
Well-known member
Could we introduce the White-headed Duck? I'd just love the irony of the subsequent cull of the non native...
cheers, alan
cheers, alan
Do the "pest species" include native animals (rodents & insects mostly, I suppose) or just fellow aliens?
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Ian Lewis
aka Gryllo
I've only just come across this rather strange thread, but surely the answer to the original reintroduction proposal is:
If there was an ecological niche in Europe for a medium sized Accipter then one would have evolved to fill it
If was an ecological niche in Europe for a small nectivorous passerine (like a hummingbird) then a sunbird species would have colonised from Africa or Asia.
As neither of these species occur in Europe we can assume that the niche does not exist.
Ian
If there was an ecological niche in Europe for a medium sized Accipter then one would have evolved to fill it
If was an ecological niche in Europe for a small nectivorous passerine (like a hummingbird) then a sunbird species would have colonised from Africa or Asia.
As neither of these species occur in Europe we can assume that the niche does not exist.
Ian
Farnboro John
Well-known member
Homo sapiens is the worst one!
Little Owls take some small rodents though not enough to make a difference to populations. They are not big enough to take on rats which are our smallest mainland introduced rodents.
A fairly high proportion of their diet is invertebrates but I doubt the actual numbers are significant.
John
lewis20126
Well-known member
Is that correct? Does not the fact that introduced species can be so successful demonstrate that there are some (many?) niches that are "unocccupied" or under utilised?
A limiting factor, eg in the medium accipiter example , might also be the lack of a suitable coloniser from Eurasia. I'm not sure if there is fossil evidence of medium sized Accipiters in temperate Asia (perhaps other than the extant Crested Goshawk group) which could have been ancestral?
cheers, alan
lewis20126
Well-known member
An existential question, but does a niche only exist if something has filled it?
cheers, a
cheers, a
In other words, no known effects on the native fauna severe enough to cause public outrage.
Besides everybody likes Little Owls. I know I do.
I don't see how this can possibly be true as a general proposition. If it were introductions would always fail since the newcomers would be unable to make a living.
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