EXCLUSIVE 8x32 & 10x32 Zeiss FL binos (1 Viewer)

Andy Bright · Aug 24, 2004

John Traynor said:
Andy,

Some of you have owned and used the EL 8.5/42 for many years. I have a simple question for you.

In your opinion, is the FL going to displace the EL as THE premier birding bin?

I know...it's not a simple question. However, if people are selling their EL's and purchasing FL's either they need the cash to buy the "latest and greatest", or they truly think the FL is the bin they'll use day in and day out. Which is it?

How about Peter Dunne? He helped design the EL and now praises the Ultravid...
http://www.njaudubon.org/NatureNotes/PickPackBinos9-03.pdf

Will Swarovski have to enhance their bins or is the EL line good enough to command the prices they do?

John

The EL was (and still is) a brilliant design, the marketing was equally good. The success of the EL coincided with Swarovski's big push into the birding world in general, getting involved with all sorts of high profile enviromental projects. It became almost fashionable to have a pair of EL's around your neck... and judging from the recent birdfair, it still is, though the amount of birders with old Zeiss around their necks nearly equalled EL's? BN's were very evident but Ultravids were almost invisible after 12 months on the market, and they are optically better than the EL's. The style of the EL may carry it through another year or two and it does just feel right in many peoples hands.

If optical quality is the prime consideration, the FL will be the premier bino..... but like I say, there are other factors. I suspect we will just have to wait and see. There is some sort of backlash going on in regards to Swarovski at present, maybe as much to do with it's perceived trendiness (a dude's bino you would say in the U.K.) as pricing... which is a little unfair as it was optically at (or near) the top up until just 12 months or so ago.

For my own part (someone selling their EL's), I can afford the FL's so why not?... to me they are visibly better rather than reputably the better. I'm not too bothered with having a 'sexy' bino around my neck (nothing will ever help to make me look trendy!), they are little more than tools to me.

I must admit, I don't see any mass selling of EL's... quite a few people I have seen have sold their 42mm EL's to buy 32mm EL's (downsizing seems popular with the brightness achieved by modern 32mm binos)

Leica and Swarovski are companies that like to get well known figures onboard, the reasons for people to change sides are sometimes genuine love of the product....sometimes not.

Still, it's great to have so many great binos out there to choose from. Birders have never had it so good. Be interesting if someone can produce prices from 1970 or so and compare them in real terms to prices today (inflation et al). Recently everyone in the U.K. was complaining about the price of driving a car, in reality it's no different to 30 years ago... fuel, insurance and suchlike. In some ways car ownership was found to be cheaper today.

regards,
Andy

dogfish · Aug 24, 2004

Andy Bright said:
Leica and Swarovski are companies that like to get well known figures onboard

Leica are the masters at this. A brochure on their stall at the British Bird Fair featured a wide range of birders from Europe and beyond extolling the virtues of Leica optics. They included Dick Forsman and Killian Mullarney, who were not using any Leica gear on a tour I was on four years ago. KM has in the past promoted Swarovski.
What phenomenon can have brought about this miraculous transformation? Not new gear in the case of the 77mm scope (one of the products extolled), that's been around for yonks.

Sean

Curtis Croulet · Aug 24, 2004

Perhaps my brethren in The Colonies can fill me in on this. I've seen stuff in reviews about people like Pete Dunne (well-known North American birder) being consulted in the design of the Swarovski EL, and the cover of his new book, Pete Dunne on Birding, shows him with an EL hanging from his neck (and a Leica 77 hoisted on his shoulder), but I'm not aware of recent ads that include testimonials or endorsements from famous birders or naturalists. Are there any?

Hmm, now that I think of it, I've seen ads from Eagle Optics with Kenn Kaufman promoting their EORPC bins.

Sandy Martin · Aug 24, 2004

Curtis Croulet said:
Perhaps my brethren in The Colonies can fill me in on this. I've seen stuff in reviews about people like Pete Dunne (well-known North American birder) being consulted in the design of the Swarovski EL, and the cover of his new book, Pete Dunne on Birding, shows him with an EL hanging from his neck (and a Leica 77 hoisted on his shoulder), but I'm not aware of recent ads that include testimonials or endorsements from famous birders or naturalists. Are there any?

Hmm, now that I think of it, I've seen ads from Eagle Optics with Kenn Kaufman promoting their EORPC bins.

If you are a 'name' you don't have to give testimonials or endorsements, just being photographed or visible to the public with the manufacturers equipment is enough. Perhaps Mr Dunne was between sponsors at the time the photo was taken and was keeping his options open

If not, he probably got a got a good talking to.

Leica tend to have the biggest names in the U.K. tied up with deals. These names being television natural history presenters well known by non-birders.

Swarovski have some lesser lights in comparison but do have a whole monthly magazine in their pocket as well as serious influence with several organisations, you could call it a more subtle tactic.

Zeiss don't seem to go in for paying anyone, even though David Attenborough and Simon King use their gear.

Sandy

Leif · Aug 24, 2004

Curtis Croulet said:
Perhaps my brethren in The Colonies can fill me in on this. I've seen stuff in reviews about people like Pete Dunne (well-known North American birder) being consulted in the design of the Swarovski EL, and the cover of his new book, Pete Dunne on Birding, shows him with an EL hanging from his neck (and a Leica 77 hoisted on his shoulder), but I'm not aware of recent ads that include testimonials or endorsements from famous birders or naturalists. Are there any?

Hmm, now that I think of it, I've seen ads from Eagle Optics with Kenn Kaufman promoting their EORPC bins.

In the UK Leica seem to have caught many of the well known names in the world of nature writing and TV although Zeiss seem to have held on to at least one well known writer and broadcaster (Simon King). I would guess that it is a combination of filthy lucre and flattery that gets them to sing the Leica song. Swarovski seem to prefer to sponsor nature projects and (according to sources on BF) fly influential people out to all expenses paid trips to try out their gear.

Pinewood · Aug 24, 2004

Recognizing the pitch

Are any of us, that is birdforum members, really impressed by endorsements or celebrity users of binoculars? The most such marketing may achieve, and not of little import, is that we might take a look at the product. I have already been stung by an "expert's" recommendation and would no longer buy any binocular except after a test view.

Indeed, Swarovski has been rather successful with its "more subtle" marketing techniques, but their products are not on my list of desiderata.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :scribe:

Pileatus · Aug 24, 2004

Andy Bright said:
The EL was (and still is) a brilliant design, the marketing was equally good. The success of the EL coincided with Swarovski's big push into the birding world in general, getting involved with all sorts of high profile enviromental projects. It became almost fashionable to have a pair of EL's around your neck... and judging from the recent birdfair, it still is, though the amount of birders with old Zeiss around their necks nearly equalled EL's? BN's were very evident but Ultravids were almost invisible after 12 months on the market, and they are optically better than the EL's. The style of the EL may carry it through another year or two and it does just feel right in many peoples hands.

If optical quality is the prime consideration, the FL will be the premier bino..... but like I say, there are other factors. I suspect we will just have to wait and see. There is some sort of backlash going on in regards to Swarovski at present, maybe as much to do with it's perceived trendiness (a dude's bino you would say in the U.K.) as pricing... which is a little unfair as it was optically at (or near) the top up until just 12 months or so ago.

For my own part (someone selling their EL's), I can afford the FL's so why not?... to me they are visibly better rather than reputably the better. I'm not too bothered with having a 'sexy' bino around my neck (nothing will ever help to make me look trendy!), they are little more than tools to me.

I must admit, I don't see any mass selling of EL's... quite a few people I have seen have sold their 42mm EL's to buy 32mm EL's (downsizing seems popular with the brightness achieved by modern 32mm binos)

Leica and Swarovski are companies that like to get well known figures onboard, the reasons for people to change sides are sometimes genuine love of the product....sometimes not.

Still, it's great to have so many great binos out there to choose from. Birders have never had it so good. Be interesting if someone can produce prices from 1970 or so and compare them in real terms to prices today (inflation et al). Recently everyone in the U.K. was complaining about the price of driving a car, in reality it's no different to 30 years ago... fuel, insurance and suchlike. In some ways car ownership was found to be cheaper today.

regards,
Andy

Andy,
Thanks for your insights.

Curtis,
There's a mention of Peter Dunne in this document from NJ Audubon.
http://www.njaudubon.org/NatureNotes/PickPackBinos9-03.pdf

John

Grousemore · Aug 24, 2004

Endorsements by 'celebrities' can actually put some people off a particular product.
Me for one.

william j clive · Aug 24, 2004

Curtis Croulet said:
Perhaps my brethren in The Colonies can fill me in on this.

I'm amazed nobody has picked up on Curtis's colonies jibe. As a Welshman who is still being colonised, I'm not about to complain. It is, however, quite interesting that some Americans now regard Britain as a colony!

Clive

Leif · Aug 24, 2004

william j clive said:
Curtis Croulet said:

Perhaps my brethren in The Colonies can fill me in on this.

I'm amazed nobody has picked up on Curtis's colonies jibe. As a Welshman who is still being colonised, I'm not about to complain. It is, however, quite interesting that some Americans now regard Britain as a colony!

Clive

Click to expand...

No doubt you'll soon be calling for the repatriation of the Saxons back to Northern Europe. Was that a "Da iawn" I heard?

william j clive · Aug 24, 2004

Leif said:
No doubt you'll soon be calling for the repatriation of the Saxons back to Northern Europe. Was that a "Da iawn" I heard?

No, not quite. Some of my best birding mates are 'economic migrants' from England. I call them economic migrants 'cos they sell their extremely expensive English homes, move to an inexpensive Welsh equivalent and spend the profit on Optics

Andy Bright · Aug 24, 2004

william j clive said:
Curtis Croulet said:

Perhaps my brethren in The Colonies can fill me in on this.

I'm amazed nobody has picked up on Curtis's colonies jibe. As a Welshman who is still being colonised, I'm not about to complain. It is, however, quite interesting that some Americans now regard Britain as a colony!

Clive

Click to expand...

I did a double take on that but I presumed Curtis was referring to his countrymen in this instance.
Andy

Curtis Croulet · Aug 24, 2004

When I was young, a long, long time ago (hint: I saw the Queen's coronation on TV), a stereotypical upper-crust Englishman on TV might refer to the US as "The Colonies." So in my message I was addressing my my fellow Americans. Please, please, I would never call you in the UK "The Colonies." I have too much respect for you and your country and its constituent nationalities to do that. Besides, I have significant English ancestry and Scots-Irish (does that term have any meaning in the UK?) on my mother's side, and I certainly wouldn't dishonor them.

Bill Atwood · Aug 24, 2004

Curtis Croulet said:
Perhaps my brethren in The Colonies can fill me in on this. I've seen stuff in reviews about people like Pete Dunne (well-known North American birder) being consulted in the design of the Swarovski EL, and the cover of his new book, Pete Dunne on Birding, shows him with an EL hanging from his neck (and a Leica 77 hoisted on his shoulder), but I'm not aware of recent ads that include testimonials or endorsements from famous birders or naturalists. Are there any?

Hmm, now that I think of it, I've seen ads from Eagle Optics with Kenn Kaufman promoting their EORPC bins.

Leupold ran an ad for their Windriver bins which contained BVD review quotes and photos of Ingraham awhile back.

I don't believe we really have that many "famous" birders. I would think endorsements would be a nice way for some of the tour leaders from the big outfits to raise some extra bucks.

Andy Bright · Aug 25, 2004

Bill Atwood said:
I don't believe we really have that many "famous" birders. I would think endorsements would be a nice way for some of the tour leaders from the big outfits to raise some extra bucks.

You need superstar status to actually get cash from a company, we have two or three people in that category in the U.K.... the rest just get free equipment (long term loan or for keeps). I think many benefited with Swarovski's big push over the last few years, even a few members on BF got scopes and/or binos to my knowledge.

helenol · Aug 25, 2004

Are people seriously influenced by "celebrities" advertising brands of bins? If so, that surprises me, especially regarding birdwatching.

Bill Atwood · Aug 25, 2004

helenol said:
Are people seriously influenced by "celebrities" advertising brands of bins? If so, that surprises me, especially regarding birdwatching.

Well I would guess the majority of BF members aren't, but I assume enough others are that this type of advertising continues

With the forthcoming or newly available FLs, HGLs, Ultravids and ELs; I stand ready, willing and able to prostitute myself to one or all of the big 4! Unfortunately no one would notice.

Pileatus · Aug 25, 2004

Curtis Croulet said:
When I was young, a long, long time ago (hint: I saw the Queen's coronation on TV), a stereotypical upper-crust Englishman on TV might refer to the US as "The Colonies." So in my message I was addressing my my fellow Americans. Please, please, I would never call you in the UK "The Colonies." I have too much respect for you and your country and its constituent nationalities to do that. Besides, I have significant English ancestry and Scots-Irish (does that term have any meaning in the UK?) on my mother's side, and I certainly wouldn't dishonor them.

"England and America are two countries divided by a common language."
George Bernard Shaw

william j clive · Aug 25, 2004

Bill Atwood said:
Well I would guess the majority of BF members aren't, but I assume enough others are that this type of advertising continues

Bill Oddie of Leica fame also endorses Country Innovation clothing. An English birding mate of mine spent a fortnight back home, up North, in June.

He came back with a CI waistcoat that cost the best part of 50 quid. He had been hankering after one of these for a while after visiting Martin Mere and Inner Marsh Farm reserves in the winter and noting that 'anyone who was anyone wore a CI waistcoat'. Sad or what? I teasingly called him a fashion slave.

I wear a very nice unbranded waistcoat I picked up for a tenner at a game fair. I suppose that makes me an inverse snob, or something.

So, there is little doubt that this kind of advertising does work, at least in Britain.

Clive

Leif · Aug 25, 2004

william j clive said:
Bill Atwood said:

Well I would guess the majority of BF members aren't, but I assume enough others are that this type of advertising continues

Bill Oddie of Leica fame also endorses Country Innovation clothing. An English birding mate of mine spent a fortnight back home, up North, in June.

He came back with a CI waistcoat that cost the best part of 50 quid. He had been hankering after one of these for a while after visiting Martin Mere and Inner Marsh Farm reserves in the winter and noting that 'anyone who was anyone wore a CI waistcoat'. Sad or what? I teasingly called him a fashion slave.

I wear a very nice unbranded waistcoat I picked up for a tenner at a game fair. I suppose that makes me an inverse snob, or something.

So, there is little doubt that this kind of advertising does work, at least in Britain.

Clive

Click to expand...

Many years ago I was strongly influenced by Bill Oddie's endorsement of Leica. I suspect I was not alone.

Leif

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