Interesting enough, I don't see it as the question of who should be considered makers and who sellers. In the end that's not what makes the difference. What's more important is which companies are being honest and which are not. All respectful brands let their customers know which models were outsourced and stand by their products regardless of country made. The ones to avoid are those who withhold information for marketing purposes.
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A NEW Product? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter WJC
- Start date
Mike Jensen explained this about 4 years ago when he outlined the 3-tier strategy. He said that Terras were made by a partner in the far east, whereas Conquest production was shared between a far east partner and Wetzlar.
You can see on the internet that the external appearance of Terras was designed by KISKA (like all the new-generation Zeiss bins) we know that battles were fought and won to get Schott extra-low dispersion glass in there, and I believe the optical train was designed by Zeiss.
It is interesting that the Terra Pockets are made in Japan whereas the 'old-look' Terras were stamped Made in China. I haven't seen a 2017 Terra yet but I believe they are still made in China.
Lee
That could of been specialist Ohara IR crystals from Japan for laser based optics
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No, but Schott Glass Technologies (Suzhou) Co.Ltd is in China.
That would be just one of them Maico.
There is a Schott Glass plant 20 miles north of where I live in Northeast Pennsylvania. There are others in Germany, Switzerland and Malaysia.
http://www.us.schott.com/advanced_optics/english/
http://www.us.schott.com/advanced_optics/english/about-ao/locations/duryea.html
Bob
perterra
Well-known member
There may be much in being good and honorable, but it dont put food on the table. It's hard to capitalize on your name recognition if you tell everybody your only contribution to the product was to write a PO for 2,000 units.
This is all conjecture and assumptions from me, but I dont think the pool of optics users is growing proportionately to the pool of optics producers (be they manufacturers or marketers). Could be even going down a little in a few years, so theres more producers fighting over a smaller slice of pie. What leads me to think this is so many of the people starting these optics companies were with optics companies and left for what ever reason, whether it was downsizing, tired of the rat race or just had a problem. But if things were going upward I dont think you would see so many ex-optics company employees starting their own companies.
So if you are directing sales, and your slice of pie is getting smaller, you can convince yourself to be creative with your descriptions if it means you dont have to lay off employees. Especially when all of your competitors are already doing it. If you are a start up, you are just following the leads already in place. Because if your business collapses before you can get a marketable reputation, then everything was for naught.
I dont think they are trying to be decpetive, they are trying to make a living and recover what they have invested.
Maybe it's not right, but it's survival.
By the way, Howdy Bill.
if this sounds a little more rambling than my usually disjointed ramblings, promethazine with codeine will do it. damn flu
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WJC
Well-known member
Yo, yer Peterraness,
I have to take at least some exception with what you say. I probably had the most expensive optics repair shop in the country. Yet, there were times, even after hiring Cory, I had to turn work away. If you know what you’re doing, and people learn of it, the dollars will take care of themselves. Each of those vendors should strive to be the very best in one or two categories. That way, those enamored with one of those categories will keep them in groceries.
Although I ran the most expensive repair shop, I also did many jobs ABSOLUTELY FREE that some other companies would have been pleased to make a buck off of. As you know, I’ve been in severe trouble for stating it like it was in my life. Still, it worked for me for 21 years at Captain’s. To me, that’s the proof in the pudding. And, for those who need it, I would be glad to provide proof.
One fellow from western Montana was going to Redding or Red Bank, California to see his sister. It was WAY out of his way to come to Seattle. He came to buy two Swarovski ELs from me. When I asked him why, he said: “If I’m gonna spend this much money on a couple of binoculars, I want to talk to somebody who knows what the hell he’s talkin’ about.” He had learned the hard way that the big, prestigious outfitters don’t always have the information when it come to optics.
As Walter Brennan used to say in the The Guns of Will Sonnett (1967-69) ... “No brag, just fact.” There is plenty to go around for all those who take their careers and obligations to others seriously. It can work every time, depending on how much effort you put into it. :cat:
Has the boss still got you strapped to the company? Send something to my email address.
perterra
Well-known member
Yeah Bill but you weren't a scratch start company, you had the reputation to get the first order. Without the first sale, there ain't no return business. Keeping the lights on long enough to get a second order is hard on start ups. Just like this I am fighting, the key is to outlive the virus. In a start up, it's the wolf at the door you have out live.
I'm on my phone right now but as soon as I drag my pudgy sniffing and sneezing ass out of bed in the morning I'll shoot you an email.
I'm on my phone right now but as soon as I drag my pudgy sniffing and sneezing ass out of bed in the morning I'll shoot you an email.
WJC
Well-known member
I understand it’s a sacrilege for one Texan to doubt another—even one from EAST Texas—but while I can see your point, I hope to temper it. Although that experience had been around for a while, the “reputation” started “from scratch” at Captain’s. When I was hired, their binocular department was on half of one shelf in one display case; it consisted of 7 or 8 units, including some chum for a plastic-eating shark. Thus, I started with no more tenure than any of those new importers. Starting from scratch CAN be very temporary. It all depends on what you put into it. There's no doubt that businesses that have been built on lies and severely bent truths can flourish right out of the gate. However, I don't believe they can prosper over the long haul.
People don’t CARE how much you KNOW until they KNOW how much you CARE. :cat:
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perterra
Well-known member
But it was already in business, I assume you had a bit of the luxury of not having to see growth in the double digits your first year or watch your funding go out the door. I think honesty is a great thing, but being brutally honest will take money from your pocket. Playing games with semantics pays off. How many honest politicians get re-elected? They dont, because they arent telling people what they want to hear. If you are a salesmanager, or ceo of a large optics company and you just dumped a bunch of millions into R&D and production of a new line of binoculars you would be making an error in judgement to tell the world that at $2500 yours is as close to perfect as is made, but that it doesnt really matter since the average joe lunchbucket cant tell it from a $700 glass. You dont have to lie, but you do have to pick your words very carefully.
The reason companies skate around the manufacture part is because so many people seem to think that unless you do everything from cast your own glass to cut your own screws and extrude your own o-rings, your glass is less of a product than those who profess to "do it all" A good binocular is a good binocular, I dont care where it comes from.
:king:
Outsourcing
Outsourced manufacturing is the rule rather than the exception for most consumer products. Why should binoculars be any different? Look at the glass and optical coatings and many other components in modern cars, bicycles, clothing, furniture, lighting, etc. Someone other than the brand name either made it entirely or many components. Most consumers really don't give a hoot who made all the parts. They just want the product to perform satisfactorily and may also enjoy the aura that comes from owning certain brand names.
As long as the XYZ binoculars deliver a good image of the bird and are reasonably priced I don't think most buyers really care whether Schott or Shanghai Optical made the glass. Or whether the screws were made in house, in another local city or came from half-way around the world.
Outsourced manufacturing is the rule rather than the exception for most consumer products. Why should binoculars be any different? Look at the glass and optical coatings and many other components in modern cars, bicycles, clothing, furniture, lighting, etc. Someone other than the brand name either made it entirely or many components. Most consumers really don't give a hoot who made all the parts. They just want the product to perform satisfactorily and may also enjoy the aura that comes from owning certain brand names.
As long as the XYZ binoculars deliver a good image of the bird and are reasonably priced I don't think most buyers really care whether Schott or Shanghai Optical made the glass. Or whether the screws were made in house, in another local city or came from half-way around the world.
jan van daalen
Well-known member
That may be so, but if I'm buying a product labeled as MADE BY .... in Germany, I may certainly hope this product is made by ..... and not completely outsourced in the Far East and labeled/sold as MADE BY.... in Germany.
That's for me the difference.
Jan
That's for me the difference.
Jan
perterra
Well-known member
I dont disagree with you at all, I'm just saying the reason it is done is because it pays to stretch the semantics as far as possible. If there were a penalty to be paid in crediability, they would not do it.
Most people take advertising at face value, thats why it works
WJC
Well-known member
“I think honesty is a great thing, but being brutally honest will take money from your pocket.”
Gerry, now our philosophical paths are beginning to cross. I know you are absolutely correct.
While the Tacoma Astronomical Society had some folks who were really movers and shakers in the hobby, they also had some folks who, listening to the local wannabes, cost Captain’s a good bit, financially.
For example, one fellow bought a 4-inch Vixen f/11 from me—a very fine specimen. Then, based on the advice of others, he began to complain about the scope. He brought it back for me to “check out.” Finally, he wanted to know: “Does this telescope have astigmatism?” Of course it did, and I was honor-bound to say so. Apparently he had been talking to optical wizards who told him that telescopes should not have any.
I pointed out that there is no telescope without aberrations and that logically AND empirically his f/11 instrument had less astigmatism than the renown f/5.4 Televue Genesis! It didn’t matter; he wanted his money back. Had HE been truthful, he would probably have stated the real problem as “buyer’s remorse.”
When it became plain that logic wasn’t going to get any traction on his gray matter, I gave him his money back.
My tenure with Captain’s was replete with such stories. Yet, I could not give things and services away fast enough to keep them from coming back to me in spades. We are all partly products of our experiences. But, if my philosophy of business had been as errant as you think, I don’t believe optics would have gone from 7 or 8 binoculars to 51% of the business in 6 years.
I am not aloof to the rigors of competition. I just feel that if your business plan can’t be carried out without lying to and cheating your neighbor you should probably consider a different occupation. I know there are others who consider my philosophies naïve. But, they are my philosophies, have served me well, and I will stand by them.
“In matter of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.”—Thomas Jefferson
“I don’t care where it comes from.”
I agree with you here, too. That’s why in my book I state—speaking of Asian binoculars:
“Not only will some Asian products go head-to-head with Europe’s best, but at savings that can run into hundreds of dollars per unit. An American company sold the binocular on the left for $580. The binocular on the right, from a European “manufacturer” sold for $899. The differences between the two? Minor aesthetics, marketing, and $319. Both binoculars were made by the same company … in Japan. The one on the right came in a box boldly stating “Made in _____________.” But it was the box that was made there—not the binocular.”
and
“If you have the money, they’ve got the product.”
As Dr. Covey would suggest, perhaps we should agree to disagree, agreeably. :cat:
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perterra
Well-known member
I think you are conflating the experiences of a single geographic location that was likely not running on other peoples money and had a targeted customer to what companies face when trying to tackle a nationwide, or world wide market and handle distribution of that product while having the people who finance them breathing down their neck. I have been fortunate enough to be involved in a 1/2 dozen nationwide acquisitions on the sales side. What I learned was every single one had it's on personality, the only thing you could bet on being the same between all the locations across the nation would be that half of the existing customers will have quit them by the end of the first year. What works in Ocala Florida doesnt work in El Paso.
By the way, I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm saying why it happens, it happens because it pays off, and people for the most part dont care, they believe what they want to believe. I have learned in my line of business, perception is reality, what you perceive to be reality is your reality, hell just read amazon reviews if you dont believe me. It matters not how good you may be if a person thinks your product is crappy, then to them, you product is crappy. Everybodys reality is relative to their experience.
This aint no new phenomena.
Binoculars that I've seen don't explicitly say who the manufacturer was. The brand name is in one place by itself. The country of origin is usually off by itself. So if it says Made in Germany that likely means at least some parts and assembly were conducted in Germany. The percentages of German content and brand name content are up for guess. Same with which firm(s) did the assembly.
The rules for country of origin labeling are opaque at best and purposely so. The country of origin brand is is there mostly to give prospective buyers a warm and fuzzy good feeling and as a result sell binoculars. It really tells me nothing about the quality. Brand reputation is a far better indicator of quality. For example the Nikon 8x30EII likely has parts from more than one source in more than one country. That does not bother me at all because the binoculars deliver excellent performance and they are supported by Nikon's reputation.
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WJC
Well-known member
Through Captain’s, ATM Journal, and 65 years on the planet, I learned about regional differences quite well. It’s just that to me integrity is not bound by state lines or oceans.
Without health, you HAVE nothing; without integrity, you ARE nothing. That philosophy has cost me financially throughout my life. But peace of mind is one of the greatest pleasures we can experience.
Like you, I don’t care where a product is made, as long as it performs well. Likewise, I don’t believe a company needs to mold their own glass, manufacture their own optics, make their own “O” rings, etc.—as I'm often accused. I just believe that they should produce most of their own product and that people whose only involvement is importing should not claim to be more.
I designed it (including the objective)
Purchased the brass for it
Contracted for its wooden crates
Contracted for the tripods—in person, as opposed to buying the same product from Teleview
Personally pick up the machining
Oversaw the assembly, baffling, and lacquering at Captain’s
Personally handled the testing of each unit
Created the serialized Certificates of Authenticity
Created the ad campaign
Created the promotional material
And, before the economy collapsed in 2008, it had sold almost $1,000,000, mostly by word of mouth, from Tokyo to Helsinki. It can be done.
:cat:
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