?Whinchat Today in Gloucestershire (1 Viewer)

Jane Turner said:

Just so you all know I'm not a moderator... I have editing rights on this thread so I can keep the index up to date!

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Sorry Jane,

I was confused by the lower right hand corner of the sub-forum page that pegged you as some sort of moderator. I realized that you were not the slap-your-hand sort of moderator, but I knew you had special privileges. Would your editing privileges allow for you to re-title threads in a manner that I proposed above assuming we ever get that far in agreeing what to do about the dissension in the forum?

Chris

bitterntwisted said:

Among your mates, maybe, but do you make a habit of taking the mick out of total strangers who stumble innocently and hopefully into your life hoping to share your expertise? Doesn't a courteous enquiry deserve a courteous reply?

When a lost tourist, map in hand, asks you for directions do you take the mick out of their map-reading? It's a good job you don't run a garage, or an electrical shop, because with an attitude like that you'd be out of business.

When I'm out birding I meet lots of people less expert them me. I really, really enjoy sharing my growing expertise with them - they really appreciate my help - it makes me feel good - it brightens all our days. There's two approaches here - one makes you feel big at the expense of someone else and the other which makes everyone feel good. Which approach someone takes strikes me as an excellent overall indicator of personality, whereby people can be roughly divided into two camps. For convenience, I tend to label these two camps, or personality types, "decent fellow humans", and "selfish tw@ts".

Graham

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You hit the nail on the head with two camps analogy, helping others learn is the real pleasure of having knowledge in the first place. I learned a huge amount from other people in my 'developement' stage, nobody can know everything and with birds there is always something to learn. If I can help even a few other people to get the same pleasure it makes it feel so much more worthwhile

Happy birding, John

Stonechat (maura Siberia) ?

These photo's were taken in Goa 5/12/07 at first I thought Whinchat then maybe one of the Wheatears but i read that there was a Siberian race of Stonechat that could be mistaken for a Whinchat can anyone help

jtwood said:

These photo's were taken in Goa 5/12/07 at first I thought Whinchat then maybe one of the Wheatears but i read that there was a Siberian race of Stonechat that could be mistaken for a Whinchat can anyone help

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yes, your birds is an Eastern (or Siberian) Stonechat, Whinchat does not occur in India

Rob

MSA said:

....1. Once an ID has been resolved, the thread is marked "Identified" in the same way that "for sale" items are marked as "now sold";..

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But who decides that the bird has been identified? We're all smuggly sitting here, happy that the bird on this thread is a Reed Bunting, but perhaps we're all wrong. Maybe some expert from Eastern Europe is about to find this thread and tell us that actually it's an Asian bunting and a first for Britain.

Nobody has absolute knowledge when it comes to bird identification, that's why the BBRC is a committee not an individual. There's always somebody who knows more than you.

Unlikely in this case I admit, but there will be examples where it would be possible for somebody with an average amount of knowledge to identify a bird for a beginner, only to find that they are both wrong.

Chris Benesh; said:

Sorry Jane,

I was confused by the lower right hand corner of the sub-forum page that pegged you as some sort of moderator. I realized that you were not the slap-your-hand sort of moderator, but I knew you had special privileges. Would your editing privileges allow for you to re-title threads in a manner that I proposed above assuming we ever get that far in agreeing what to do about the dissension in the forum?

Chris

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It does, and what is more I already do this for the threads that really need expert input! Those feeing cocky, go and have a lash at the German Egret.

The issue surely is not that a bird has been identified, but that it hasn't!

Shock - it's a practical and constructive suggestion!

Jane Turner said:

An alternative method would be for people to respond to threads in something approximating the manner they would like to be responded to themselves. Just a thought....

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Quite.

You know, though, that the problem is that this keeps sort of incident keeps happening again and again and again. Your solution doesn't seem to work...

There are always new people joining, and always beginners getting "easy" ID's wrong.

The problem is that ever-so-often a smart alec will post (rightly or wrongly) something like "it's only an X you fool, look in a book" and then someone will get offended and off we'll go all over again and again and again...

I do like your suggest Jane, however it just doesn't work. It's been tried over and over again, but these fall-outs keep happening...

So, to try and stop this, a constructive suggestion has been put on the table, yet the mods will never respond to it. Are they happy that these arguments keep happening and that Dudes keep getting offended on this site?

Surely it's worth consideration and a response?

Coigach said:

But who decides that the bird has been identified? We're all smuggly sitting here, happy that the bird on this thread is a Reed Bunting, but perhaps we're all wrong. Maybe some expert from Eastern Europe is about to find this thread and tell us that actually it's an Asian bunting and a first for Britain.

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No, it's a Reed Bunting.

MSA, really like you're suggestion, that's a really good one, a smart constructive idea. OK, it would be important to have a "challange" function if someone thought the agreed ID was wrong and could put a compelling case together, but in principle that sounds a really good inovation.

BT

BobTag said:

No, it's a Reed Bunting.


BT

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I agree, for all the reasons stated once or twice. Next.

Chris Benesh; said:

Sorry Jane,

I was confused by the lower right hand corner of the sub-forum page that pegged you as some sort of moderator. I realized that you were not the slap-your-hand sort of moderator, but I knew you had special privileges. Would your editing privileges allow for you to re-title threads in a manner that I proposed above assuming we ever get that far in agreeing what to do about the dissension in the forum?

Chris

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It also lets me see deleted posts - so I know which posters are uncomfortable with being seen to be in the minority when they suggest an ID early in a thread and the weight of opinion is against them....

The purpose of the ID forum is for people who can't ID a bird to get help ID'ing them. It also up to them to bump it up the thread if it doesn't get answered. The contentious ones always rise to the top since there are debates (and deletions ). When the thread title is hindering an interesting thread being picked up, I often rename them.

The rigmarole of splitting the forum into sub-forums and then making a decision on what to do on every misfile, multiple posting etc doesn't bear thinking about. If you really can't be arsed looking for juicy ones, wait till the thread hits 20 posts. You can be fairly sure that expert help is required then. Or go and look in the index for the list of identified birds if you think you are hard enough.


• SeabirdsPetrel spp,Black and White Shearwater spp
• Grebe spp Possible Pied-billed x Atitlan integrades;
• Hybrid Aythya with Lesser Scaup Characteristics
• Raptors Possible Peregrine x Saker?, Common Buzzard with unusually pale tail; Unidentified raptor and probably unidentifiable, but it generated just about the most heated debate on BF. I can't make the original links work but there are some additional images of the bird late in the thread; Unidentified Raptor in Thailand, Possible Besra; Mystery raptor; Snake Eagle spp, ***Spotted Eagle spp, Honey Buzzard and Common Buzzard the most argued thread on BF; Kestrel spp
• Gulls Glaucous or Glaucous x Herring 1st summer bird; Troublesome gull variously identified as Laughing, Franklins, Little and Kittiwake; Unidentified gull possible hybrid LBBG x Herring; Large Gull spp; Unidentified leucistic Gull.
• Terns Whiskered Tern, Elegant Tern In Dingle; Least or Little Tern, Saudi Sterna tern White-cheeked or Common.
• Waders Challenging Tringa, Probable Least Sandpipers, Little Stint that is confusable with Semipalmated Sandpiper; Little Stint tricky and slightly unusual winter-plumaged bird; Summer plumaged Stint; unidentified South African Calidrid Red-necked, Little or perhaps just a Sanderling; Unidentified Snipe, Odd Golden plover spp, another Odd golden Plover
• Unidentified Black Hummer, another a female taken in the US
• Unidentified Nightjar
• Downy or Hairy Woodpecker
• Cliff or Cave Swallow
• Pipits Strange Tree Pipit allegedly; Pipit spp Icelandic Mystery Pipit; Pipit SppMeadow or japonicus Buff-bellied?, The Hannafore Pipit japonicus Buff-bellied Pipit or strange Rock pipit? further discussion, Troublesome Pipit Water Pipit or Scaninavian Rock Pipit; Paddyfield Pipit a video to work with! Blyth's or Richard's Pipit in Spain, Citrine Wagtail or Water Pipit - you decide
• Old world Warblers hybrid Sedge x Reed Warbler, Unidentified Warbler, Whitethroat possibly of the race icteops; Unidentified Warbler spp in India, Another Indian mystery Warbler, Another Sykes/Blyths Reed/Paddyfield type thing, Hulme's Yellow-browed Warbler and probably Two-barred Greenish Warbler; **Iberian Chiffchaff probable, Mystery Phyllosc, African Cisticola spp,
• New world Warblers ***Cape May or Pine Warbler
• Unidentified White-eye deceased after close encounter wth a cat;
• Mystery Corvid
• ***Southern Grey Shike lengthy debate about the identification of an adult male, possibly Steppe Grey Shike;
• Kingbird spp
• Empid Probably Least, but thought to be Eastern Phoebe by some!
• Nitlava spp Fujian or Rufous-bellied Nitlava
• probable Cape May Warbler
• Northern or Orchard Oriole
• Mystery Albino, Albino-ish something
• Buntings Oddly plumaged Reed Bunting probably! Cirl Bunting moulting female;
• Troublesome US Sparrow
• Whislter spp
• Passerine spp
• Mystery blue passerine in S.Africa

Jane Turner said:

The purpose of the ID forum is for people who can't ID a bird to get help ID'ing them.

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That is one aspect. A lot of people use the ID forum for other purposes, ie trying to ID birds they haven't seen before, or for some time, or just honing their ID skills and keeping their 'hand in', etc.

I agree about the rigmarole involved in splitting into sub-forums.

It is also a fact that the ID Forum is the most used on this site.

Yeah I should have said primary purpose.

Hi Jane,

If the links you provided are an example, it is clear that it could be tough to label a bird as identified in some instances. I looked at a few of the links again, and in my mind, the identification seemed pretty clear, yet there was no formal consensus. I figure that each individual looks at the evidence that has been put forth and draws their own conclusions, right or wrong. Some of the ones on your list that seem identifiable to me include:
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=64973 is Little Shrike-thrush
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=5129 is Baltimore Oriole
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=66238 is Least Flycatcher
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=9621 is Cattle Tyrant
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=58417 controversial, but must be a Pine Warbler

Chris

Recently I've not always moved them out of the unidentified bin when there is good consensus. And as for that Wet Warbler, I think its going to take DNA

Up until recently I stopped using the Bird ID section. This was due to sarcasm/irony and smarta***s such as has been witnessed on this thread.

Is this another 'Lets all vote to change the website' thread again?

I have had a bit of time away because i get annoyed by demeaning comments on one of the other 'here-to-stay' threads and then this one pops up......there's some good points in here but sadly....there's the impatient 'We know more than you' posters who seem to enjoy their unthoughtful comments

tired_boy said:

Is this another 'Lets all vote to change the website' thread again?

I have had a bit of time away because i get annoyed by demeaning comments on one of the other 'here-to-stay' threads and then this one pops up......there's some good points in here but sadly....there's the impatient 'We know more than you' posters who seem to enjoy their unthoughtful comments

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Yes

Bye Again.

Si

changer400 said:

Bye Again.

Si

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Every time you say 'goodbye' it has an air of Spring about it ...

I am amazed at the strength of opinions expressed here but as the original poster, let me add a few comments:
The main thing to me is that this is a forum specifically for people to ask for help in the identification of birds. No-one should be surprised at anyone posting a photograph of anything and asking what it is. All have the option to respond helpfully or to keep quiet and I don't see any point in responding with anything other than helpful advice.
Secondly, anyone can fail to identify any bird when all they see is a fleeting distant glimpse in bad light. What may be 'obvious' to some experts may be far from obvious to beginners. [My pictures still do not look to me close to any of the pictures I have seen of Reed Buntings.]
Thirdly, I have been slightly put off by responses to earlier queries (not this one) and, consequently, I try very hard to do what I can first with my Field Guides. But I know that they are in some respects out-of-date. I can't take maps seriously when they all show Little Egrets as just along the South coast, and I have seen lots of these birds in Gloucestershire, Wales and Cumbria. If I want to know whether Wheatears now occasionally overwinter here, I assume that BF experts may be more up-to-date in their knowledge than my books.
Finally, I agree that these threads should be short and sweet. I normally respond immediately to thank BF members for their help and to agree with their verdict, when I am convinced of the identification. As far as I am concerned, this then closes the thread off.
I really am very grateful to all those who have helped with my many queries in this forum and I will continue to use it for help when I need it.
Alan

deborah4 said:

Every time you say 'goodbye' it has an air of Spring about it ...

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Love you too Debs

Si