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bunting maybe? UK (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter jc001
- Start date
phil baber
Clipped Wing
I've sat on this for 24 hrs! I wanted it to sink in. My first reaction was Reed.It is still my reaction, but there does seem to be something weird about it. For instance, it has a Rustic element to it, but, as you say, doesn't tick all the boxes. The double white wing bar appears prominent and ,yes, it has pale whitish spots on lower rear of ear coverts. It's like a Reed/Rustic crossover.Other than that i'm baffled. But i can in no way see Corn Bunting here!
phil baber
Clipped Wing
My immediate reaction was . . . no ok, won't go there.
So what would a hybrid Reed/Rustic look like? This one? Have they been known to hybridise? I know some of the family can do . . .
I was too chicken to suggest that,but it does seem to show elements from both Reed and Rustic. That's as far as i go!
bitterntwisted
Graham Howard Shortt
Can we have a grid ref for this bird? And can someone get some better photos?
Without them I will be forced to post something about the relative toe and claw lengths of Reed, Corn and Rustic Buntings. And life is too short for that, surely?
I don't know what it is. Jizz to me is more Reed than Corn and I could swear it's got white outer tail feathers. But CAU is always right.
Graham
Without them I will be forced to post something about the relative toe and claw lengths of Reed, Corn and Rustic Buntings. And life is too short for that, surely?
I don't know what it is. Jizz to me is more Reed than Corn and I could swear it's got white outer tail feathers. But CAU is always right.
Graham
birdboybowley
Well-known member.....apparently so ;)
I can't for the life of me make this a Corn Bunting either - the last two photos especially look nothing like one, from head markings to general jizz. Reed was my immediate reaction too.....but if in doubt - hybrid!!
SteveClifton
Well-known member
I was too chicken to suggest that,but it does seem to show elements from both Reed and Rustic. That's as far as i go!
I can see what you mean here, esp. with regard to those 'wing bars', but would think a hybrid to be highly unlikely. Of course, stranger things have no doubt happened. The bird does look too large-billed for either Reed or Rustic, but in most other ways it looks fine to me.
The reasons why I now think that Corn Bunting is a better alternative than Reed are:
-the bill looks too heavy for a normal British Reed Bunting
-the entire bird looks quite front heavy
-the median coverts seem to have whitish tips
-the crown and malar stripe look quite strongly streaked
-the lower mandible looks straw coloured
-in the first photo, where the tail is best visible, no white edges are visible, and the upperside of the tail looks quite pale
(Originally posted by CAU)
I would agree with your first three points, but disagree with the last 3!
More specifically:
the coarsely streaked breast and flanks don't look right for Corn B. I've just looked at the birdguides photo archives (72 images of Corn) and almost all of them have very finely 'pencil streaked' underparts. Even the pale submoustacial stripes and supercilium are finely streaked giving a less contrasty look than this bird.
Lower mandible looks grey on my screen
Tail sides don't look pale on the first image, but if you look closely at the lower edge there appears to be a pale edge. As it's in shadow, it doesn't contrast-but in the first pic in post 8 it certainly does look white-sided.
On balance, the wing bars (it has a House Sparrow's wings!) and heavy-ish bill go against it being a Reed, but otherwise it looks fine in most other respects. I wonder how much the large-billed look is an artefact of the images-remember how the bill size of the Teesside GW Gull looks different in some pics-small at times, and heavy in some of the more recent photos.
Against it being Corn:
Too coarsely streaked without the fine 'pencil lines'.
General impression and Jizz says 'Reed' (to me at least)
Seems to have white tail sides
Pale tips to median coverts look too contrasty even for Corn! Explain that!
Steve
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Vespa
Tom Hines
There seems to be too much overall contrast for Corn.
I looked at this when it was first posted and thought Reed, but noticed the white on the coverts.
Apologies if this has been mentioned but is the white an exageration as a result of the exposure on the shot? Looking at the bush it is sat in, if you look at the actual brances, they have a very white blurry edge, but in reality they will be much darker?
I looked at this when it was first posted and thought Reed, but noticed the white on the coverts.
Apologies if this has been mentioned but is the white an exageration as a result of the exposure on the shot? Looking at the bush it is sat in, if you look at the actual brances, they have a very white blurry edge, but in reality they will be much darker?
Casting my mind back to September in 1996(??) that's what we all said on Spurn when watching a (corn) Bunting in Easington school grounds til it was forgotten when they trapped a Lancy at the obs.
That said, going by the similar-ish plumage of that bird, why should it still be in juv plumage now? and would a Corn Bunting show a central crown stripe as thia one apparently does?
Initially I thought that way too. However, I'm now inclined to think that the streaks on the underparts may look broader because of the blurriness of the photo. Compare with Deborah's picture in post #27.
Look at the attached comparison photo, at least on my screen the bill colour of the subject bird fits better the Corn Bunting than any of the Reed Buntings, but it's of course debatable.
I can see what you mean, but even on Corn Buntings the edges of the tail feathers are paler than the centres. It may easily create an illusion of pale edges to the tail in such blurry photos, especially as sharpening algorithms on digital cameras usually exaggerate such details.
Here we probably just have to disagree. To me the bird looks chesty and front heavy, being in a typical pose for Corn Bunting. The bill looks large and the eye small.
Compare to this one:
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pepe/embcal_esp_250407_DSC_0425.jpg
A juvenal plumage Corn Bunting would surely look untypical, but a January passerine should not be in juvenal plumage anymore. Anyway, compare the crown stripe to the Corn Bunting (which is not in juvenal plumage) in the attached comparison photo. Also compare the bill size with the three different Reed Buntings. Note that the Corn Bunting has a large bill and small eyes, and that the Reed Buntings have small bills and large eyes. The subject bird seems to fit Corn Bunting very well in this regard.
I first stated that Reed Bunting sounds like the best alternative, and then changed my mind, so my statements have definitely not been completely right even in this thread (nevermind some other threads)...
Attachments
deborah4
Well-known member
A link I posted in post #10, also my shot above seem to show rather similar streaks
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=21120
Perhaps resolution has something to do with it, see the lower left hand bird in this link (again posted in post #10) but a better pic in second link with cleaner underparts/along with heavy flank streaking and a contrasty bird in the third link
http://waarneming.nl/foto/view/285097
http://www.birdphoto.fi/lajikuvat/kuvahtml/0embcal301.html
http://www.birdphoto.fi/lajikuvat/kuvahtml/0embcal100.html
http://www.birdguides.com/pictures/default.asp?search=1&mode=search&sp=155003&rty=0&off=166475&v=0
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds_user_uploads/21120_UU_7390_kv1.jpg
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=21120
If you look at the links posted under each of your points, perhaps some could be explained by intra-specific variation, of which as usual there is much!, and low resolution/poor light etc.
Not nailing my colours to the flag pole by any means but nothing that's been said convinces me Corn Bunting can be ruled out in favour of an unidentified rarity.
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No worries! By the way, the edges of the tail look look white also in this shot:
http://www.birdphoto.fi/lajikuvat/kuvahtml/0embcal100.html
James Thomas
Well-known member
Well I've no idea but I've had a right good look at buntings as a result! Shame how there's always stacks of photos of males and so few of females.
Anyway, looking at the less likely options (besides reed and corn), these seemed to match better than most;
http://www.birdingintaiwan.org/gallery/wen-hsin/gallery 2/Black-faced Bunting2.JPG
http://www.birdingintaiwan.org/gallery/wen-hsin/gallery 2/Black-faced Bunting1.JPG
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_R-wnAB5v6X0/SGEEbfVmCEI/AAAAAAAAEcs/qh01QqmnlUM/uvs080622-040.jpg
Anyway, looking at the less likely options (besides reed and corn), these seemed to match better than most;
http://www.birdingintaiwan.org/gallery/wen-hsin/gallery 2/Black-faced Bunting2.JPG
http://www.birdingintaiwan.org/gallery/wen-hsin/gallery 2/Black-faced Bunting1.JPG
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_R-wnAB5v6X0/SGEEbfVmCEI/AAAAAAAAEcs/qh01QqmnlUM/uvs080622-040.jpg
nickderry
C'est pas ma faute, je suis anglais.
the thing is with buntings, they mostly have the same basic pattern with a few subtle differences. From a distant blurred photo, you could get eye-strain turning it into any number of species and virtually any bunting could be made into a good match. Contrast and whiteness level on a photo means that any evaluation based on tonal values have to be taken with a pinch of salt. The shape of the bird, with a large beak still screams corn bunting to me though I doubt we'll all agree on this unless better photos emerge.
rockfowl
Mark Andrews
Absolutely :t:
Jan-Paul Charteris
Sussex birder and budding moth enthusiast
I haven't got any references to hand, but aren't there other races of Reed that are paler with larger bills?
Jan
Jan
John Cantelo
Well-known member
Well, head down and here goes! I’ve tried really hard, but I cannot remotely see Corn Bunting in this bird (sorry folks!). In fact I’d put it at the bottom of my list of potential IDs. My gut reaction was ‘Reed Bunting’ and it wasn’t until I noticed a lengthening number of posts that I appreciated that this ID was at ‘controversial’.
My reasons are as follows:-
1 – Shape and jizz – to me this bird does not have any of the dumpy ‘I’ve-eaten-too-many-pork-pies’ look of Corn Bunting.
2 – Crown – this bird looks to have a distinctly paler median stripe to the crown – quite wrong for CB’s evenly streaked crown. The head looks too high and ‘peaky’ too
3 – Malar stripe looks too bold and the ground colour too yellowish buff
4 – Cheeks too boldly marked and showing too much warm brown
5 – To me there’s something about the flank streaking that doesn’t look right for CB – can’t think why!
6 – Mantle looks too warm brown for CB
7 – Too warm brown – almost ‘chestnutty’ – on the wing coverts
8 – A distinct hint of warmer brown on the rump
9 – Evidently white tail sides
The only things that I can detect that suggest CB are a) the chest spot, b) the ‘large’ bill and c) the white tips to the median coverts. At times Reed Bunting can show a similar ‘spot’ (either as a result of ruffled feathers or a fortuitous combination of streaking). Besides the spot in this bird feels subtly wrong for CB. Personally, I’m not convinced that the bill looks particularly large or outside the possible range for Reed Bunting. The white tips to the median coverts is the only odd thing about this bird – but to me they look to bold for the average CB too! Some form of wear, bleaching or simply a genetic oddity could account for this diversion from the norm – a far greater suite of odd and atypical features are needed to squeeze this bird into the box marked ‘Corn Bunting’.
One thing for sure – if all the posters here had the bird in front of them for 30 secs there wouldn’t be any argument! Cameras do not have to lie to confuse!
I’m very tempted to close by saying that approaching 50 years of birding tell me that whatever this bird is, it isn’t a Corn Bunting, but that would only be to wind-up Deborah!!!! (Good to meet you today!),
My reasons are as follows:-
1 – Shape and jizz – to me this bird does not have any of the dumpy ‘I’ve-eaten-too-many-pork-pies’ look of Corn Bunting.
2 – Crown – this bird looks to have a distinctly paler median stripe to the crown – quite wrong for CB’s evenly streaked crown. The head looks too high and ‘peaky’ too
3 – Malar stripe looks too bold and the ground colour too yellowish buff
4 – Cheeks too boldly marked and showing too much warm brown
5 – To me there’s something about the flank streaking that doesn’t look right for CB – can’t think why!
6 – Mantle looks too warm brown for CB
7 – Too warm brown – almost ‘chestnutty’ – on the wing coverts
8 – A distinct hint of warmer brown on the rump
9 – Evidently white tail sides
The only things that I can detect that suggest CB are a) the chest spot, b) the ‘large’ bill and c) the white tips to the median coverts. At times Reed Bunting can show a similar ‘spot’ (either as a result of ruffled feathers or a fortuitous combination of streaking). Besides the spot in this bird feels subtly wrong for CB. Personally, I’m not convinced that the bill looks particularly large or outside the possible range for Reed Bunting. The white tips to the median coverts is the only odd thing about this bird – but to me they look to bold for the average CB too! Some form of wear, bleaching or simply a genetic oddity could account for this diversion from the norm – a far greater suite of odd and atypical features are needed to squeeze this bird into the box marked ‘Corn Bunting’.
One thing for sure – if all the posters here had the bird in front of them for 30 secs there wouldn’t be any argument! Cameras do not have to lie to confuse!
I’m very tempted to close by saying that approaching 50 years of birding tell me that whatever this bird is, it isn’t a Corn Bunting, but that would only be to wind-up Deborah!!!!
(Good to meet you today!),
deborah4
Well-known member
I’m very tempted to close by saying that approaching 50 years of birding tell me that whatever this bird is, it isn’t a Corn Bunting, but that would only be to wind-up Deborah!!!!
Ha ha ...the 'wind up' is in the mention
I could easily quote the comment another birder, trying to argue an alternative opinion to the one he had on the egret thread ....''that one can spend many many years looking at birds but not actually seeing them'' (but I won't as that will wind you up!o)As for the points you raised, I believe CAU and I have addressed all of said features showing them to be not inconsistent with Corn Bunting in so far as they actually exist, or indeed give an impression to exist under varying photographic conditions. Perhaps go through the links and say why they are not applicable to the features we're 'seeing' in the ID bird? (Other than the links are to photos of Corn Bunting of course, which in your opinion this isn't!)
(Good to meet you today too!)
Yes Mark, an interesting thread - your mood seems to rise and fall as it swings in and out of favor with your original stated case which makes it even more interesting
As I've said consistently, I hope, I'm not nailing my colours to the mast, yet nobody has yet convinced me this is a Reed Bunting or some kind of rarity, and that Corn can be ruled out, especially given the more likely Corn habitat it was found in ... ie. high on the Downs where winter flocks are more common than Reed Bunting which tend to be found lower down, (or indeed Hybrid/vagrant rarities which tend not to be found at all on the Sussex Downs unless in dodgy images
).I'm still undecided and still saying Corn Bunting needs to be ruled out - I don't think it can be on these images! However, as John says, I'm sure the solution would be staring at us in the face were we in the field.
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