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Pipit for discussion (1 Viewer)

CJW

Hit-and-run WUM
Given that 'the authorities' say that littoralis Rock Pipit cannot be identified in Winter plumage (a theory I don't subscribe to), I was wondering what you thought of this bird.
 

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Not sure anyone ever said that no littoralis could be identified in winter, isn't it more that not every littoralis can be identified? I for one am happy to accept that some, though far from all, can be identified in winter. And I'd agree that's what this bird is
 
Hmmmmm

If some petrosus can show features similar to littoralis during winter, then surely the best we can do (in winter) is say that a bird 'shows characteristics of' littoralis?

Regards
Tristan
 
Tristan R said:
Hmmmmm

If some petrosus can show features similar to littoralis during winter, then surely the best we can do (in winter) is say that a bird 'shows characteristics of' littoralis?

Regards
Tristan

Probably right on the 'shows characteristics of' conclusion, but it is more the other way round, a lot of littoralis, but not all, look like normal petrosus. But I doubt any petrosus would ever look this brightly supercilliummed (have I just invented a new word??) in winter.
 
Nutcracker said:
I doubt any petrosus would ever look this brightly supercilliummed (have I just invented a new word??) in winter.

Exactly, Peter. Also the outer TFs were starkly white as can just be seen in both shots. Furthermore the lower breast streaking was reminiscent of Water Pipit - a feature I wouldn't expect on any petrosus.
 
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Nutcracker said:
Probably right on the 'shows characteristics of' conclusion, but it is more the other way round, a lot of littoralis, but not all, look like normal petrosus. But I doubt any petrosus would ever look this brightly supercilliummed (have I just invented a new word??) in winter.
This is generally true of course, however I understand that some petrosus do show characteristics similar to littoralis in winter. This obviously blurrs the issue somewhat, which is why I suggest (during winter) using the 'shows characteristics of' conclusion!
 
Hi all,
While I agree that the Rock Pipit in those pics seems quite distinctive, I too would hesitate to assign it to littoralis: I have seen a few birds a little later than this (at a stage when one would expect littoralis to have attained at least some breeding plumage) with decent white supercilia, but nothing else that pointed towards that subspecies. Also, given the status of that form on the south coast here (1-2 accepted records), they are far more likely to have been odd petrosus?
Harry
 
I've seen more littoralisy birds than this.. there I have invented a word too, and even those are not acceptable as littoralis.


However I believe that this and they were mostly likely littoralis. I'd be even more impressed if it wasn't on a Rocky shore
 
Jane Turner said:
However I believe that this and they were mostly likely littoralis. I'd be even more impressed if it wasn't on a Rocky shore

Plenty of littoralis breed on rocky shores - most of the 300,000-strong Norwegian population, and quite a few of the Swedish, they're not all on muddy Baltic shores!

Given the relative population sizes, it's likely that littoralis outnumbers petrosus by about 5:1 in Britain in winter. We ought to be more concerned about trying to identify definite petrosus! (not sure if that can be done in winter, though)
 
Nutcracker said:
Given the relative population sizes, it's likely that littoralis outnumbers petrosus by about 5:1 in Britain in winter. We ought to be more concerned about trying to identify definite petrosus! (not sure if that can be done in winter, though)


Absolutely - my conclusions exactly. The majority of our wintering birds are littoralis
Petrosus is a fairly sedentary bird with only very localised movements. If you have a site that only has wintering Rock Pipits I'm willing to bet that they are almost certainly littoralis

Darrell
 
Nutcracker said:
Plenty of littoralis breed on rocky shores - most of the 300,000-strong Norwegian population, and quite a few of the Swedish, they're not all on muddy Baltic shores!

Given the relative population sizes, it's likely that littoralis outnumbers petrosus by about 5:1 in Britain in winter. We ought to be more concerned about trying to identify definite petrosus! (not sure if that can be done in winter, though)

5:1!! Where does that figure come from. It may be true for (eastern?)England but I'm pretty sure its does not hold for Britain.

As it stands, *proven* littoralis wintering sites in Britain are nearly all on soft shores. Doesn't mean to say that they don't winter alongside petrosus as well, but I don't think there is any evidence.

At the moment I would assume that these two birds are at the extreme end of petrosus. THey actually suggest to me that the ID is harder than some might think, because wintering birds in known petrosus breeding areas may look like this. Catching and colour-ringing them may be the only way to find out what they do and what they look like in summer.

Interesting leg colour though!?
 
Mike Pennington said:
At the moment I would assume that these two birds are at the extreme end of petrosus.
That's typical of the guesswork we hear all the time.
I reckon we get to see more Rock Pipits, throughout the year, than any other region in the British Isles and the increase in numbers from late September onwards is quite dramatic. Many of these 'incoming' birds, I would say, are littoralis.
None of our resident birds EVER show a combination of such prominent supers, white outer TFs and reduced breast smudging.
 
CJW said:
That's typical of the guesswork we hear all the time.
I reckon we get to see more Rock Pipits, throughout the year, than any other region in the British Isles and the increase in numbers from late September onwards is quite dramatic. Many of these 'incoming' birds, I would say, are littoralis.
None of our resident birds EVER show a combination of such prominent supers, white outer TFs and reduced breast smudging.

I hear you. I just have a different interpretation of the facts than you, Chris. I'm not saying I'm right and I'm not saying you're wrong. Both our opinions have equal validity because at the end of the day they are both based on guesswork because you don't 'know' they are littoralis (just as I don't know they are petrosus). They may be littoralis, but until you get ringing recoveries, I for one won't be convinced.

Shetland incidentally, has between 6% and 12% of the Uk population of Rock Pipits. Interestingly, despite being very close to Scandinavia, we don't get an obvious influx in September but birds do move around and start using different habitats outside the breeding season.
 
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Excellent reply Mike. A lesser person would have lost their rag.
I still think field observations are going to be very important in the 'debate' and that Hell will freeze over before we get any useful ringing recovery data.
 
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