• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Andean Coot???? (1 Viewer)

BirdsPeru

Alejandro Tabini
I just take this picture last weekend at Pantanos de Villa and was thinking about an Andean Coot of the Yellow-fronted morph but nor sure if it is.

The bird has a complete white bill with a rounded yellow frontal shield.

Thi picture is not so good but the best I can get with my equipment, I think i need a bigger lens.

Any confirmation or correction would be appreciated.

Alejandro
 

Attachments

  • Animal173.jpg
    Animal173.jpg
    30.3 KB · Views: 219
  • Animal174.jpg
    Animal174.jpg
    36.7 KB · Views: 184
I'd agree with that - I've never seen the species but a check in Lynx HBW reveals only two species of coot in Peru; it fits Andean Coot well, and has the wrong bill pattern for Giant Coot
 
Watcha

I'm lucky enough to have seen it and it looks ok from memory

not seen Giant Coot yet though but would dearly love too...

Coots in the Andes just seem so out of place....

Tim
 
Yes, without doubt an Andean (aka Slate-coloured) Coot. Giant Coot is - you guessed it - giants. Imagine a Coot the size of a small Goose and you've got one. Their shape is rather unique, too. Furthermore, they're only very rarely found near the coast, but normally above 3000 meters asl (where they often are rather common, though aggressive, so usually no more than one pair per lake). BTW: There's actually a third species of coot in Peru, but it's restricted to the far south: Red-fronted Coot with its yellow bill and longish red frontal shield.
 
Ronald Zee said:
Could be the white winged Coot/Fulica Leucoptera.

No records of that species anywhere near Peru, and while a stray might be possible (although unlikely) in southern Peru, an individual in Pantanos de Villa (which is near Lima) would be very unlikely. They also have a differently shaped frontal shield (less rounded and bulbous). It's a pretty standard Andean (Slate-coloured)...
 
Thanks everyone for the confirmation, now I got the second morth of Andean Coot after long time trying to take a picture of it.

Alejandro
 
BirdsPeru said:
Thanks everyone for the confirmation, now I got the second morth of Andean Coot after long time trying to take a picture of it.

Alejandro

I remember studying the coots at Pantanos de Villa a couple of years ago: at first we thought we had two different species as it seemed odd to have the two forms looking so different. At some lagoons further south you do get two species but at PdV I think it is just Andean.

Steve
 
Steve Lister said:
I remember studying the coots at Pantanos de Villa a couple of years ago: at first we thought we had two different species as it seemed odd to have the two forms looking so different. At some lagoons further south you do get two species but at PdV I think it is just Andean.

Steve

Actually, I've observed three morphs at Pantanos de Villa; the yellow/white billed morph with a red frontal shield, the white billed morph with a yellow frontal shield, and a morph where both the frontal shield & the bill are white. The morph with a red frontal shield also has olive (rather than slaty grey) legs. Normally, the Andean is the only species at Pantanos de Villa, but as Giant on occasion strays to the coast it would be possible (although certainly unusual).
 
Clements counts it as just two morphs, white-fronted having either a yellow or white shield. Seems a strange way of doing it! And he does not mention red-fronted white-billed birds, an oversight perhaps.

The coot I was thinking of further south is Red-fronted, which I know has been claimed at PdV but presumably in error for the red-fronted morph of Andean.

Steve
 
Last edited:
Steve Lister said:
And he does not mention red-fronted white-billed birds, an oversight perhaps.

Well, yes and no. While I've seen loads of Andean Coots, I can't remember ever having seen one with a pure white bill and a red shield (although I'm not saying it couldn't occur). However, the vast majority of red-shielded don't have pure yellow bills either! Normally, red-shielded have mostly yellow bills (usually near the base, and often near the tip, too), while the remaining is white. Regardless, you are right, strange to describe three variants in a text, and then say two morphs occur! Oh well, at least a new guide to the birds of Peru should be out within a year or two...
 
Rasmus Boegh said:
Actually, I've observed three morphs at Pantanos de Villa; the yellow/white billed morph with a red frontal shield, the white billed morph with a yellow frontal shield, and a morph where both the frontal shield & the bill are white. The morph with a red frontal shield also has olive (rather than slaty grey) legs. Normally, the Andean is the only species at Pantanos de Villa, but as Giant on occasion strays to the coast it would be possible (although certainly unusual).

Hi Rasmus

I am amazed to read that the Andean Coot (Fulica ardesiaca) has three differnt morphs, why aren't they considered different species?

As far as I know this species of Coots must be the only one with varying beak/shield colours.
 
Ronald Zee said:
Hi Rasmus

I am amazed to read that the Andean Coot (Fulica ardesiaca) has three differnt morphs, why aren't they considered different species?

As far as I know this species of Coots must be the only one with varying beak/shield colours.

Alejandro, sorry for this slight twist compared to the original question – hope you don’t mind…

Ronald, as far as I know you have a deeper interest in Coots, so I took the time to elaborate my answer (had quite a bit of it already from things I’ve written earlier). Furthermore, I checked my memory against my notes (to make sure I got it right). While the following is specifically aimed at this species, much of the info is relevant for other polymorphic species.

The different morphs (phenotypes) involved are regarded as a single species because they interbreed to a large extent (morphs don’t equal species. Otherwise we would have to say humans with blue eyes and humans with brown eyes were different species, too!). Actually, different phenotypes in terms of bill & shield are also known from another species in this genus; the Hawaiian Coot. To my knowledge, there have not been any thorough studies of the possible reasons for this in the case of the Andean, but other polymorphic species have been studied to great extent, leading to several different possible explanations (obviously, it is somewhat simplified and usually morphs are the result of a combination of the following rather than just one):

1) The genes contributing to the colour of the bill & shield could be placed on neutral alleles. This results in phenotypes that are equal, and thus often approach 50/50. As far as I know such morphs are relatively infrequent.

2) The phenotype has various advantages/problems compared to the other phenotype(s). It could be that one morph is more desirable as a partner or perhaps better at hiding. However, the advantage isn’t directly visible in all cases, e.g. it could be that one morph also has a better immune system (usually due to connected alleles). This usually leads to one phenotype being commoner than another. Of course such examples require a careful balance. If the advantage one morph has is too large, the other will go extinct.

3) Few genes are co-dominant. Thus, phenotypes expressed by dominant genes are likely to be more common unless that form has a serious disadvantage over other phenotypes in life (see above #2). In reality dominance among genes is a bit more complex, but there’s really no reason to go into that in this context.

Back to the Andean Coot: In large parts of the range the morphs with white or yellow shield and white/yellow bill are the commonest by far, especially in the northern part of its range (I’ve never seen the red-fronted morph in Ecuador, though I know it occur infrequently – perhaps I just didn’t spend enough time looking at every single individual I have encountered). However, it seems the roles are switched in the southern part of the range where the red-shielded morph is commoner. Indeed, there are areas in Bolivia where I’m not sure I ever saw a white-shielded or a yellow-shielded individual! This indicate several things: First, in my experience, the morph with white/yellow bill and yellow shield appear to be roughly equally common as the morph with white bill and shield. Hence, these two are likely not to have an advantage over the other, and thus the two are likely to be examples of #1 described above. However, in northern regions the red-shielded morph is rare. This could lead us to believe that the red-shielded morph has a disadvantage over the other two (as described above in #2), or it could be that the genes leading to the red-shielded morph are recessive (as described above in #3). However, as mentioned previously, the situation is a bit more complex, as it seems the red-shielded morph is commoner than the other in the southern part of the range. Hence, it is unlikely that one form is genetically dominant over the other.

In this case I think the likelihood is that a specific phenotype is the preferred partner. This is supported by a number of observations. First, in regions where several species of coots are sympatric, the different species have different colours of the bills and/or shields. While this could be a coincidence, the bills/frontal shields are known to be important in breeding where pairs have displays involving face-to-face “head shaking”. Thus, the difference in colour of bill and/or shield is likely to be an important factor in maintaining pure lines in areas where several species occur. As you may note, in most areas where the Andean Coot occur, it is the only species of Coot. The only exceptions are in the high barren Andean regions where the very different Giant Coot occur and Laguna de Mejía in SW Peru where a relatively small population of Red-fronted exist. The population of Red-fronted is at Laguna de Mejía is some distance from other populations, so it is likely to be a relatively recent arrival or perhaps a relict population. Furthermore, Andean Coot is generally restricted to the highlands in this region, meaning that it only will come face-to-face with a Red-fronted infrequently. The situation is comparable in Hawaii, where the Hawaiian Coot is to only species, except for accidental visits by the American Coot. Being the only one result in some liberty in terms of morphs, as there is no risk of ending up looking too much like closely related species (which could lead to frequent hybridization). While above may be an indication of the reason for one morph to be commoner than the other in certain areas, there actually is another thing supporting this view. Apparently, there are observations (not mine, haven’t spend enough time watching pairs of this species to notice) that indicate that red-shielded individual seem to prefer red-shielded as partners if they have the possibility to choose, and likewise with pale-shielded preferring other pale-shielded as partners (apparently, white or yellow shield isn’t important in this context). There are also indications of a level of habitat segregation between the two forms with red-shielded generally being commoner at lakes with much vegetation and pale-shielded in more barren regions (this could lead to speculations over possible benefits one morph may have in a specific habitat). However, if no partner with the same shield-colour is available, it appears they happily will take a partner belonging to the population with the other shield-colour. Thus, interbreeding between the forms is extensive and they are regarded as one species. Historically, the taxonomical treatment of this species has been problematic. For a long period the pale-shielded (including both the yellow-shielded and the white-shielded) were considered a subspecies of the American Coot and known under the Scientific name of Fulica americana peruviana. The red-shielded morph was considered a different species under the name F. ardesiaca. Then it became apparent that the two happily would – and did – interbreed to a significant degree, and they were lumped together as a subspecies of the American Coot, this time known as F. americana ardesiaca. Finally, studies in Colombia were able to show that F. americana columbiana occurred together with F. ardesiaca without any signs of interbreeding. This has later been supported by genetics. So, finally this resulted in F. ardesiaca being recognized as a species distinct from the F. americana, but including the various morphs. While it hasn’t been mentioned here, there are actually a number of other (generally very rare) variants. Among others, there are more than one yellow shield colour…

BTW: Morphs exist in quite a few species, though often the difference is rather limited. One of the most striking examples of polymorphy in a species is the black versus the red morph in the Papuan Lorikeet - check this links - exact same species, just two different morphs:

http://api.corbis.com/wscorbisone/f...3HDq6lpZWgqgKcGTKb8+tngWh97kYxzmqt475H8zM9LA=

Several species of herons also have very different morphs such as the Reddish Egret (there's also a white morph), the Great Blue Heron (there's also a white morph) and the various Reef Herons (where there usually is a white and a very dark morph).
 
Last edited:
Rasmus Boegh said:
3) Few genes are co-dominant. Thus, phenotypes expressed by dominant genes are likely to be more common unless that form has a serious disadvantage over other phenotypes in life (see above #2). In reality dominance among genes is a bit more complex, but there’s really no reason to go into that in this context.
and
...or it could be that the genes leading to the red-shielded morph are recessive (as described above in #3). However, as mentioned previously, the situation is a bit more complex, as it seems the red-shielded morph is commoner than the other in the southern part of the range. Hence, it is unlikely that one form is genetically dominant over the other.

As someone who uses most of my time on teaching genetics, I have to protest this presentation of dominant vs recessive. It is one of the most important results of the Hardy-Weinberg equation (which describes how genes behave in populations) that both allele and genotype frequencies stay the same in next generation as in this one unless there is a selection going on. Any individual with one dominant and one recessive gene will (as stated) have the looks of the dominant gene, but every other ofspring (AKA 50%) will have received the recessive gene from this parent, and that is why also individuals showing the recessive trait will be present to the same extent in the next generation as they are in the present generation.

If Rasmus's presentation was correct, then we should not see many people with blue or green eye color, as that is a recessive trait compared with brown eyes. The fact that blue and green eyes are quite common in northern Europe shows what is expected from the HW equation.

HTH
Niels
 
Yes, to a large degree you're right, my previous explanation included a few comments that were to simple and/or less than accurate, but there a few other factors here that need to be taken into account. On average, a phenotype expressed by dominant genes will be more common due to the basic form, where we assume the dominant and the recessive genes are equally common. This leads to the typical AA, Ab, Ab, bb, where 3/4 have the dominant phenotype. This number is - as you correctly say - stabil from generation to generation (except for in a few cases, as mentioned later on). There will of course also be a number of cases where the dominant genotype is more frequent, and vice versa where the recessive genotype is more frequent. Looking at a large number of genes, these two (the one where recessive is more common and the one where dominant is more common) should roughly be equally common - thus "outmatch" each other. Thus, on average, 3/4 of a population will have the dominant phenotype. This of course doesn't mean that there are no populations where the recessive phenotype is more frequent, as there certainly are, but as said - we're talking about average here. A bit on eye colour. As Niels correctly states blue eyes is a recessive trait. It has long been speculated (and this seems likely looking at variations in humans) that it originated in the northern Paleactic. Furthermore, it has been speculated that there was an advantage in having blue eyes in this region. Thus, there were (and are) human populations where most have blue eyes (both Niels and I originate from one such area). This is changing with the recent added mobility of humans, as we all know there is an added input of people with brown eyes in communities that historically have had many with blue eyes. Likewise, the advantage (if there ever was one as speculated) in having blue eyes in this region is likely to have disappeared due to the way we live today. Of course, as Niels correctly states, blue eyes certainly won't go extinct even if any advantage it once gave in a particular region is gone (as the Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium indeed describe; p² + 2pq + q² = 1). However, if the Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium was the "complete truth" rather than a simpified version, we wouldn't see a change in the frequency in blue versus brown eyes in *any* population and we clearly do. To take a rather extreme example; as far as I know, everybody had brown eyes in North America until Europeans with blue eyes started arriving a few hundred years ago. Today a part of the population in Norther America have blue eyes. This is due to a few significant factors in the Hardy-Weinberg equation, as I am sure you are well aware. In its main form it works with stabile (perhaps not the best word in this context, but can't think of a better) populations and doesn't account for things like migration (i.e. changes in the gene pool; p versus q). Migration happen all the time in nature as we all know. Secondly, it assumes all breeding is random, which it isn't in all cases involving morphs (in addition to these two there are a few other factors, though of less interest in this context). Hence, in its original form the Hardy-Weinberg equation is better in laboratories than in real life. Of course it should be mentioned that since the original equation, others have developed far more complex versions that tries to account for above (with variable luck, may I add!). Regardless, this leads me to the coots. Coots are highly mobile and this species certainly is no exception. Thus, "near-pure" populations of red-shielded in the south are likely to have a continuous and rather significant input of pale-shielded individuals; vice versa in the "near-pure" populations of pale-shielded in the north. If assuming one form - lets take the red-shielded as an example - is caused by recessive genes, it seems strange that the continuous input of then dominant pale-shielded wouldn't lead to this phenotype becomming more frequent in these southern populations, something that quite certainly would be relatively easy to notice due to their relatively short lifespan (compared to us; humans). Thus, a combination of the mobility in this species and the north-south distribution of the various morphs lead me to think - as I still do - that the explanation is more likely to be due to a preference in partner or perhaps habitat (in both cases basically natural selection, which of course doesn't exclude the possibility that dominant/recessive genes are involved, too). In the end all of this is speculations, at least until someone takes the time to actually check using thorough scientific methods. Regardless, I hope above gave a better idea of my thoughts in this context and how I arrived at them - I'm not sure I expressed myself clearly enough on this exact part of the topic in my previous post.
 
Last edited:
Warning! This thread is more than 19 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top