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Pipit spp, Worlds End , Wales ,UK , in May (1 Viewer)

I'm all for discussion - but what are we discussing?

Are we discussing whether british breeding meadow pipits can show a supercilium? - the answer to that is yes they can.

If that's not what we're discussing - well , what are we discussing?
 
I'm all for discussion - but what are we discussing?

Are we discussing whether british breeding meadow pipits can show a supercilium? - the answer to that is yes they can.

If that's not what we're discussing - well , what are we discussing?

We are discussing speculation and opinions well founded or otherwise? Anthus as a group are often challenging, especially if the images are less than perfect...it's the "currency" of the forum, that which should allow healthy debate. Yes Mipits can show supercillium...and I've found in the past, Wintering flocks on my local reservoirs that consisted of birds with olive, grey, and warm brown upperparts. No doubt mixed races involved, nevertheless they would all conform to pratensis, until someone attempts to specify the geography of the different groups..Now there's a challenge...could give Redpoll and Phyllosc.groups a run for their money?
 
Here's another taken at Landguard, Suffolk 27.5.13.
 

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Alstrom and Mild consider Mipit best considered as monotypic with clinal variation W to E - its the extreme NW birds referred to in the article referred to by JHD
 
Note I agreed with the I.D of Meadow Pipit on this thread I think you should start by reading the thread from the 1st post downwards, it appears your reading it the other way.

I was of course referring to the other ridiculous pipit thread. Mis-interpreting Martin Garners website trying to shoehorn mipits to an as yet un described subspecies seems mental. I'm an avid reader of these threads trying to find the moment they jump the shark. I haven't seen a useful id thread on the forum for donkeys now.
 
I was of course referring to the other ridiculous pipit thread. Mis-interpreting Martin Garners website trying to shoehorn mipits to an as yet un described subspecies seems mental. I'm an avid reader of these threads trying to find the moment they jump the shark. I haven't seen a useful id thread on the forum for donkeys now.

I have been correct on a number of pipit I,D threads, however some poor pictures have been put on here so many are best guessees by myself and other people.
The Icelandic Pipit thread was interesting someone trying to futher knowledge of Birds it may lead to nothing but may lead further, i.e Herring Gull split - Yellow -legged and Caspian Gull. Redpoll sp splits.
You have a chioce you do not have to visit the Bird question and answers thread.
I don't now what you mean by your term trying to find the moment they jump Shark.
I thought it was Bird I.D only.
 
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Interesting on this Pipit thread link
http://www.davidnorman.org.uk/MRG/Meadow Pipits.htm
Note Runcorn Cheshire 2009 between the 10 and 28 Sept 107 Meadow Pipits caught had already moulted.
On the Icelandic Meadow Pipit article it would have been nice to know the exact dates the Birds were seen.
Reading the Runcorn Account the birds in the Icelandic Meadow Pipit article should have already moulted I assume.
I vismig at Hartshill, north Warks where Meadow Pipits do not breed, just had a Spring passge bird display flight on migration.
Peak Meadow Pipit movements appear to vary from year to year
28/9/12 177 Meadow Pipit over (these numbers are peak for me).
24/10/13 159 Meadow Pipit over.

Full counts are on Trektellan GB, Hartshill Hayes picnic area. Warwickshire.
 
Interesting on this Pipit thread link
http://www.davidnorman.org.uk/MRG/Meadow Pipits.htm
Note Runcorn Cheshire 2009 between the 10 and 28 Sept 107 Meadow Pipits caught had already moulted.
On the Icelandic Meadow Pipit article it would have been nice to know the exact dates the Birds were seen.
Reading the Runcorn Account the birds in the Icelandic Meadow Pipit article should have already moulted I assume.
I vismig at Hartshill, north Warks where Meadow Pipits do not breed, just had a Spring passge bird display flight on migration.
Peak Meadow Pipit movements appear to vary from year to year
28/9/12 177 Meadow Pipit over (these numbers are peak for me).
24/10/13 159 Meadow Pipit over.

Full counts are on Trektellan GB, Hartshill Hayes picnic area. Warwickshire.

You've really lost it now. Dave Norman's article is on the difficulties of aging Meadow Pipit, due to pre-breeding moult. The only time the origins of the birds passing through is mentioned is at the beginning, and even then he only says they 'may' be from Iceland etc. Meadow Pipit are so variable that, even in the hand, they are not all identifiable to taxon ( that is if Mipit aren't monotypic with the 'subspecies' no more than points on a cline ). To attempt to delineate point of origin from something as variable as the strength of the supercillium is pointless, particularly if you're working from the photos posted.
 
If you collect data over a, long enough period, you can see a quite definite double peak in spring and autumn passage of meadow Pipit. I've always assumed that the earlier peak refers to returning UK breeders in Northern England - whilst the later peak - which coincides with or a few days before White Wagtail are birds going further North - possibly to the same place as the albas.

I do get "whistleri"-like birds on occasion
 

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You've really lost it now. Dave Norman's article is on the difficulties of aging Meadow Pipit, due to pre-breeding moult. The only time the origins of the birds passing through is mentioned is at the beginning, and even then he only says they 'may' be from Iceland etc. Meadow Pipit are so variable that, even in the hand, they are not all identifiable to taxon ( that is if Mipit aren't monotypic with the 'subspecies' no more than points on a cline ). To attempt to delineate point of origin from something as variable as the strength of the supercillium is pointless, particularly if you're working from the photos posted.


I was using the link to get the period of moults I also wrote this down, I did not expect people to read the full article.
So you consider the Icelandic meadow pipit article on Birding Frontiers a complete waste of time.
 
I was using the link to get the period of moults I also wrote this down, I did not expect people to read the full article.
So you consider the Icelandic meadow pipit article on Birding Frontiers a complete waste of time.

Sorry I didn't just read the parts you wanted us to read. If you post any article then, of course, some of us will read it. As for "using the link to get the period of moult". You specifically stated 'Icelandic' Meadow Pipit. Nowhere in the link does it state that the birds studied were from Iceland, just that they were migrating. I don't consider anything that constructively advances knowledge a "waste of time". I do, on the other hand, consider Meadow Pipit to be best regarded as monotypic with barely distinctive points on a cline, raised to 'subspecific' level on the slightest of differences. 'Icelandic'-type Mipit occur in more southerly populations. I, myself, have seen extremely well marked birds, with long, bold supercillia ( for a Mipit ) around World's End.
 
Sorry I didn't just read the parts you wanted us to read. If you post any article then, of course, some of us will read it. As for "using the link to get the period of moult". You specifically stated 'Icelandic' Meadow Pipit. Nowhere in the link does it state that the birds studied were from Iceland, just that they were migrating. I don't consider anything that constructively advances knowledge a "waste of time". I do, on the other hand, consider Meadow Pipit to be best regarded as monotypic with barely distinctive points on a cline, raised to 'subspecific' level on the slightest of differences. 'Icelandic'-type Mipit occur in more southerly populations. I, myself, have seen extremely well marked birds, with long, bold supercillia ( for a Mipit ) around World's End.

All the information was written on the post and some people ask for source of information so the source is there, 2nd paragarph, so you read a whole dictionary when looking for the definition of one word. If people (ringers) want to read the rest of the article they can.
There may be no moult information on Icelandic type Meadow Pipits (also from SE Greenland), so you take the next best information as a guide.
One could argue that some Icelandic type Meadow Pipits could breed here, like some Fieldfare's or Redwings do. Parrot crossbill in Scotland may be a remnant and still sightings of two-barred Crossbill around from the latest influx.
People who put effort into Bird I.D should be praised, their stuidies may not lead anywhere, but some do and the work done in the past by these people you yourself are using daily on your Bird I.D stints on Birdforum.
 
You're reading what you want into things. There was nothing in Dave Norman's article that suggests the Pipits studied were 'Icelandic', yet you link it to moult in 'Icelandic' Pipit. "Reading the Runcorn Account the birds in the Icelandic Meadow Pipit article should have already have moulted, I assume" is what you said. As I said, if you post a link then people are going to read all of it. If you wanted to cherry pick one part of the link then you should have just quoted. As for your last sentence, I suggest you carefully read what I said about advancing knowledge - then calm down. Acting in an aggressive manner does nothing to advance anything.
 
Its worth remembering that Yellow-legged gull and Caspian Gull were distinct taxa from Herring Gull before they were spilt into species - all that happened is that they went from well-marked sub species into full species.

Meadow Pipit is at best clinal the separation of whistleri is regarded as dubious by many authorities.
 
If you collect data over a, long enough period, you can see a quite definite double peak in spring and autumn passage of meadow Pipit. I've always assumed that the earlier peak refers to returning UK breeders in Northern England - whilst the later peak - which coincides with or a few days before White Wagtail are birds going further North - possibly to the same place as the albas.

I do get "whistleri"-like birds on occasion

That's absolutely right. Clive McKay was kind enough to explain to me that the bimodal distribution was indeed related to two separate movements from different populations.
 
You're reading what you want into things. There was nothing in Dave Norman's article that suggests the Pipits studied were 'Icelandic', yet you link it to moult in 'Icelandic' Pipit. "Reading the Runcorn Account the birds in the Icelandic Meadow Pipit article should have already have moulted, I assume" is what you said. As I said, if you post a link then people are going to read all of it. If you wanted to cherry pick one part of the link then you should have just quoted. As for your last sentence, I suggest you carefully read what I said about advancing knowledge - then calm down. Acting in an aggressive manner does nothing to advance anything.

Your repeating yourself, as explained, there may be no information available on moult in Icelandic Meadow Pipits, you say they are the same species and yet you may believe Icelandic Meadow Pipit moult in February. I would say it would be more in line with those at Runcorn.
 
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