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Water and Rock Pipits, UK (1 Viewer)

birderUK007

birderUK007

Well-known member
Spotted in a small freshwater area just back from the coast near Brighton.

About 4-6 birds in total all feeding in and around the water:

1) Water Pipit? http://youtu.be/hyLGyP52pso
2) Rock Pipit? http://youtu.be/I_LHwoWEcU4

1 - Clear defined supercilium and well marked face. Lighter pinkish legs which I've read can occur for Water Pipits. Markings smudgey on mantle distinguishing from Meadow. Underparts look cleaner than a Rock.

2) Smudgier markings and darker overall.

Do you agree?
 
birderUK007 said:
Lighter pinkish legs which I've read can occur for Water Pipits.
Click to expand...

To clarify this point paler legs can occur on both Rock and Water Pipits and is largely age-related as juveniles start with pale pinkish legs in both species and these darken in the autumn and the bird's 1st winter. It is also thought that some females can have slightly paler legs than males but this is more subtle.

Cheers

Roy
 
Thanks all for your input. Wanted to update - After discussing the sighting here I submitted it (with video) to the RBA as a Water Pipit sighting but they have said it's not a Water but a very well marked Rock Pipit. Dang!
 
I'm, the biggest water Pipit denier on the planet. Scandi Rock pipits can match just about every plumage feature of Water but that rump colour (and the way it contrasts with the mantle) is the best feature along with the pattern on t5 which I can't make out in the video

Here is an extreme Autumn littoralis - compare the rump to mantle colour

http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/data/527/4350Rock_pipit_-_littoralis.JPG
 

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Birderuk007: where was bird no 1 exactly? Cuckmere Haven up to the Exceat Bridge is one of the best locations for Rock Pipit, including Scandinavian, in Sussex. The pools and meanders are in varying degrees brackish. I have never seen Water Pipit there. That of course does not mean it isn't one. I am not going to disagree with Jane whose skills are excellent, just pointing out that Scan RP is very possible in this location. Further up the Cuckmere Valley would be a more likely location and would be a good find.
 
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I'm not the least bit infallible Joanne and I think (some extreme) Scandi Rock Pipits from Water Pipit is a frequently underestimated ID challenge However in addition to the brown tones to the rump, it was the relative fineness of the bill that struck me a Water-like - and its face pattern isn't dominated by eye-ring. There seems a correlation between Water-like plumage and being a bit of a monster in Scandi Rockits. Perhaps I should revert to my normal line - leave it till you can see the pattern on T5!

This bird top left
 

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joannec said:
Birderuk007: where was bird no 1 exactly? Cuckmere Haven up to the Exceat Bridge is one of the best locations for Rock Pipit, including Scandinavian, in Sussex. The pools and meanders are in varying degrees brackish. I have never seen Water Pipit there. That of course does not mean it isn't one. I am not going to disagree with Jane whose skills are excellent, just pointing out that Scan RP is very possible in this location. Further up the Cuckmere Valley would be a more likely location and would be a good find.
Click to expand...

It was indeed spotted at Cuckmere Haven, about 50 yards away from the coastline in a small pool. Thank you all for the lively debate, I have certainly learned a great deal about the complexity of this species identification.
 
Jane Turner said:
I'm not the least bit infallible Joanne and I think (some extreme) Scandi Rock Pipits from Water Pipit is a frequently underestimated ID challenge However in addition to the brown tones to the rump, it was the relative fineness of the bill that struck me a Water-like - and its face pattern isn't dominated by eye-ring. There seems a correlation between Water-like plumage and being a bit of a monster in Scandi Rockits. Perhaps I should revert to my normal line - leave it till you can see the pattern on T5!

This bird top left
Click to expand...

It definitely is one of my biggest ID challenges and I will pay more attention to the brown rump in future. Rock Pipit numbers in E Sussex swell in the winter months and littoralis is hard in winter plumage at the best of times.

Birder UK007: any chance of submitting this to the records committee? It's a good find or you could send it to the recorder for his opinion first.
 
Just a Rock Pipit, I'm afraid.
The rump colour does not look all that different from the rest of the upperparts (including tail); it is certainly not warm brown as in Water Pipit. Moreover, I get the impression of a greenish hue on nape (as in Rock).
 
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