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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 04:31   #26
Torchepot
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Historically a great deal of this has gone on with live prey for the purposes of photography and film making (or even for just "entertainment") - there are some notorious examples.

These days there seems to be a code that any potential prey item has to have a "reasonable means of escape" in artificial set ups for film making (at least in the UK). I'm sure that dubious practices still go on though, particularly out of sight "on location" - and it seems to be applied almost exclusively to mammals - many kingfisher shots are obtained with captive fish in a perspex box submerged into a river or pond. One of the sequences in the recent Big Cat series where fish were being caught right in front of the lens looked suspiciously as if staged to me. The "welfare" of invertebrates never seems to be considered - "I'm a Celebrity" being an obvious example.

It occurs to me that any supplementary feeding will have some "unnatural" effect on wild animals - most obviously on breeding success and in that respect anyone who simply puts a feeder up (or food out for foxes etc.) will be modifying behaviour and population dynamics to some degree.

Trapping and killing wild rodents for the purpose of getting photos or videos is not something I'd personally be prepared to do. Cultural attitudes towards animals are constantly changing - sometimes in illogical ways. I know people who will carefully trap and release small rodents from their property but kill moles that spoil their lawn.
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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 09:24   #27
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These days there seems to be a code that any potential prey item has to have a "reasonable means of escape" in artificial set ups for film making
Though that of itself could also be illegal, if it is a non-native species where it is illegal to release the species into the wild (e.g. rats, gray squirrels).
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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 09:42   #28
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It doesn't mean escape into the wild - just a means to avoid being killed.

A lot of film sequences are filmed in artificial sets (though perhaps less frequently these days since a number of high profile exposures) so as I understand it rather than releasing a mouse into a closed set with nowhere to hide some kind of cover - like a burrow or piece of wood is provided - so it's less like feeding a live animal to a predator (which used to be done frequently).
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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 10:29   #29
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I'd think that raptors are a bit different from passerines in their food gathering technique and it must often take lake place, out of sight of the young birds so they won't learn much like that?

How would a Sparrowhawk, teach the ambush skills at a bird table with eager apprentices sat looking on?

I remember there was a young Swamphen somewhere (Cumbria?) which was feeding quite well, stripping grass stems. People were getting really excited at this thinking that it proved the bird was tought by a genuine, wild, adult somewhere - it wasn't.

A
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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 12:09   #30
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I'd think that raptors are a bit different from passerines in their food gathering technique and it must often take lake place, out of sight of the young birds so they won't learn much like that?

How would a Sparrowhawk, teach the ambush skills at a bird table with eager apprentices sat looking on?

A
Well, if I was a Sparrowhawk, I'd consider getting my offspring to accompany me soaring up above woodland and then demonstrate a meteoric dive, low approach and final grab which they could watch the whole of from a thousand feet up with their astonishing eyesight.

The actual grabbing process I might give them practice at by catching something, maybe even not quite killing it, and then dropping it where they would have half a chance to catch it. Hopefully, if they aren't the thickest Sparrowhawk kids ever, they would get the idea eventually.

Simples!

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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 13:18   #31
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Had a chance to change the permission settings in google drive. Give this a try. It was cold and overcast that morning so lighting not that good.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k0a...ew?usp=sharing

Last edited by Marty1 : Wednesday 14th February 2018 at 13:34.
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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 13:42   #32
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I feel like I'm trolling this issue a bit but don't mean to.

How is this different than providing dead meal worms for the insect eaters. All birds that are fed in everyone's backyard is altering their behavior. Taking the devils advocate, should we stop feeding all birds, allow the population to reduce itself to what the environment can support ? I don't think anyone would agree with that. I live with in a pretty congested area of housing which was just recently developed (3-4 yrs). The area developed had a small population of deer which I feed every night (I got pics if you would like to see them). Should I stop feeding the deer now that the development took away their food plots.
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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 14:15   #33
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Can you upload the video to YouTube and post the URL here? That seems easier and interested persons won't have to down a potentially large file.

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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 14:35   #34
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Can you upload the video to YouTube and post the URL here? That seems easier and interested persons won't have to down a potentially large file.

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That's a good idea

Saw something today I've never seen before, the male grabbed the food first, he's quite the ambush hunter, didn't see him coming. The female started squeaking and cooing at the male, he tore off a piece of the food and gave it to her. Pretty neat to see
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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 14:42   #35
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Here's the video on YouTube. Didn't get the male today, he ambushed me and was to quick

https://youtu.be/B6CiaIBlZDc
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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 14:44   #36
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How is this different than providing dead meal worms for the insect eaters. All birds that are fed in everyone's backyard is altering their behavior. Taking the devils advocate, should we stop feeding all birds, allow the population to reduce itself to what the environment can support ? I don't think anyone would agree with that. I live with in a pretty congested area of housing which was just recently developed (3-4 yrs). The area developed had a small population of deer which I feed every night (I got pics if you would like to see them). Should I stop feeding the deer now that the development took away their food plots.
Its not different. And you're right: in general feeding birds is universally acceptable. The question of trapping wild rodents I have dealt with above but if you're comfortable with it that's an end of it.

However, one question: how do you assess the deer's chances of survival in general once the area becomes housing? Risks from dog attacks, gun owners, road traffic accidents etc will all go up to some extent. Maybe it is time to discourage the deer at least from coming close to home?

Happy wildlife watching.

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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 15:02   #37
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These type of questions never seem to have a definitive answer. I went to an environmentall college took several ethics courses where we discussed these types of scenarios endlessly
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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 15:31   #38
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These type of questions never seem to have a definitive answer. I went to an environmentall college took several ethics courses where we discussed these types of scenarios endlessly
"Go with your gut" - Leroy Jethro Gibbs

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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 15:50   #39
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"Go with your gut" - Leroy Jethro Gibbs

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I agree
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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 16:45   #40
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"Go with your gut" - Leroy Jethro Gibbs

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That'd be better for attracting vultures than hawks, though.
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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 17:12   #41
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That'd be better for attracting vultures than hawks, though.
I suppose it would, we got quite a few black and Turkey vultures here as well. We had a nesting pair of black vultures, seeing those gangly little ones running around was pretty neat.
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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 17:50   #42
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Thoughts on feeding wild hawks their natural food?
Feeding wild animals usually isn't considered making a contribution to the livelihood of wild animals. Wild animals need to hunt and forage for food whereas domesticated animals need to be fed by humans.

What is considered acceptable is to create a landscape with native plants that provide food and shelter at different times of the year for different species; provide some sort of water feature; put up nest boxes; get rid of all or most of your lawn - it's a desert, in terms of wildlife habitat; don't use chemical fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, rodenticides, weed-and-feed products, slug bait, etc.

Last edited by Andonso : Wednesday 14th February 2018 at 18:07.
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Old Wednesday 14th February 2018, 21:27   #43
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I have done all of the above in my backyard.
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Old Yesterday, 12:57   #44
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Interesting, but I'd say that was an exception to the general rule...

There's some info/discussion on whether hunting behaviour in Raptors is innate or learned here.
Eleonora's Falcons teach their young by catching a migrant songbird over the sea, but don't kill it. Then, as they approach land, they call the fledged young off their cliff ledges, and then release the prey, which then flies off but is stooped upon or chased by the young bird.

I've seen Hoopoes caught, released and dispatched in this way at Tunnel Beach, Episkopi, Cyprus.

Incidentally, Eleonora's falcons work cooperatively. Experienced adult parents may make a kill, then transfer the kill to another non-breeding Eleonora's Falcon (Perhaps a bird from the previous year?), which then takes it back to the nest and feeds it to the nestlings.

Sooty Falcons may also work cooperatively, but i may be imagining I read that!
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Species and subspecies are but a convenient fiction - Kees van Deemter (2010), "In praise of vagueness". Biology is messy
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